You are hereA Passover Haggadah for Christian Use
A Passover Haggadah for Christian Use
Over the years I have cribbed together a Haggadah for the Passover meal. I've used this to 1)celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus with my church, 2)teach about the Passover meal and its symbols, and 3) help to, ever so subtly, describe Jesus as the completion of all the promises of God.
I know that the Passover rituals - as celebrated by modern Jews - probably bear very little resemblence to the meal that Jesus ate with his disciples as the modern Haggadah's are based on writings that go back only as far as the 2nd century, or late 1st, and that they've gone through continual adaptations to language, geography, and culture.
Having said that, I hope that this proves to be of some value to you. - jeff -
The Seder Haggadah
L = Leader
A = Assembled People
(The family is seated around the table)
L We are about to enact the ancient story of Israel’s redemption from Egypt; an event in ancient history remembered and reenacted through the centuries. Tonight we will place ourselves into the story.
L The purpose of this Seder is to give us the opportunity to recall the dramatic and miraculous events which led to the exodus from an ancient land of slavery. The Scriptures, centuries ago, instructed us to meet, as we do tonight, when it was declared, “And you shall tell your son on that day saying: It is because of what the LORD did for me when I came out of Egypt.” (Exodus 13:8)
(Everyone stands)
Hadlakat Nerot
Light the Candles
L Barukh atah Adonai eloheinu melekh ha- olam, asher kid’shanu be-mitzvotav ve-tzivanu le-hadlik ner shel yom tov.
A Praised are You, Adoni, our God, Ruler of the universe, Who has commanded us to light the holiday candles.
(One woman at each table lights the candles)
Women Praised are You, Adonai, Our God, Ruler of the universe. You have made us Your own. We light these candles in Your Name.
L As we light the candles we pray that God will light our hearts with His Holy Spirit.
We want to understand how God has redeemed His people.
(Be Seated)
Kadesh
The First Cup
L Tonight we will drink four cups of wine; one for each of the promises made by the LORD to Moses when we were slaves in Egypt.
Reader 1 “I will bring you out of Egypt.”
Reader 2 “I will free you from slavery.”
Reader 3 “I will save you with My outstretched arm.”
Reader 4 “I will take you to be My people.”
L We remember these four promises at Passover by drinking from our cups four times. The first is called the Cup of Sanctification, the second is the Cup of Plagues, the third – the Cup of Redemption, and the fourth – the Cup of Praise.
Reader 1 “I will bring you out of Egypt.”
L Barukh atah Adonai eloheinu melekh ha-olam borei p’ri hagafen. Baruk atah Adonai eloheinu melekh ha-olam, asher bahar banu mi-kol am ve-rom’manu mi-kol lashon ve-kid’shanu be-mitzvotav. Va-titen lanu Adonai eloheinu be-ahavah mo’adim le-simhah, hagim u-z’manim le-sasson, et yom Hag Ha-Maot ha-zeh, z’man heruteinu, mikra kodesh, zekher litziyat Mitzrayim. Ki vanu vaharta ve- otanu kidashtn mi-kol ha-amin, u-mo’adei kodsh’kha be-simhah uv’sasson hinhaltanu. Baruh atah Adonai mekadesh Yisrael ve-ha-z’manim
A Praised are You, Adonai, our God, Ruler of the universe, Who creates the fruit of the vine. Praised are You, Adonai, our God, Ruler of the universe, Who has lifted us up through mitzvot and, with love, has given us this Holiday of Matzot, a celebration of freedom when we remember how we left Egypt. Praised are You, Adoni, our God , Who has set apart the people of Israel and the festivals.
(Everyone stands)
L Barukh atah Adonai eloheinu melekh ha-olam, she-hehyanu ve-ki’y’manu ve-higiyanu la-z’man ha-zeh.
A (Lifting their cups) Praised are You, Adonai, our God, Ruler of the universe, Who has given us life and kept us well so we could celebrate this special time.
Urhatz
The Hand Washing
(We wash our hands to remind us that God is holy. As we come before Him we too must be holy, as it is written:
“Who shall go up to the mountain of the LORD?
Who shall take a stand in His holy place?
The clean of hands and pure of heart…”
(Psalm 24:3 – 4)
Silently hold the pitcher in one hand and pour the water over the other hand. Reverse hands and repeat. Dry your hands and pass to the next person.)
“They were at supper…Jesus knew that the Father had put everything into his hands, and that he had come from God and was returning to God, and he got up from the table, removed his outer garments and, taking a towel, wrapped it around his waist; he then poured water into a basin and began to wipe them with the towel he was wearing. He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, ‘Lord, are you going to wash my feet?’ Jesus answered, ‘At the moment you do not know what I am doing, but later you will understand.’ ‘Never!’ said Peter, ‘You shall not wash my feet.’ Jesus replied, ‘If I do not wash you, you can have no share with me.’ Simon Peter said, ‘Well then, Lord, not only my feet, but my hands and my head as well!’ Jesus said, ‘no one who has had a bath needs washing, such a person is clean all over. You too are clean…”
(John 13: 2- 10)
Karpas
The Green Vegetable
L The karpas are here to remind us of several things: of the earth in spring, and of new life. We also recall that our ancestors were tillers of the soil and were ever grateful for the earth’s produce. The karpas is also like the hyssop branches our ancestors used to smear the blood of the Passover Lamb on their doorposts. The salt water is here to remind us of the bitterness of slavery, of the pain and suffering and the tears of our ancestors. Tonight they are our tears.
L Barukh atah Adonai eloheinu melekh ha-olam, borei p’ri ha-adamah.
A Praised are You, Adonai, our God, Ruler of the universe, Who creates everything that grows from the earth.
A May our gratitude for the blessings which we enjoy help us to remember those who still weep because of slavery and oppression.
Yahatz
Breaking the Middle Matzah
L At Passover, three matzah are wrapped together. They are called, “The Unity.” I have taken the middle matzah and broken it in half. One half is wrapped and hidden;this is called the Afikomen, and is an important part of the Seder after the meal.
L Look! This is the bread of affliction, the humble and simple bread which our ancestors ate in the land of Egypt. Let those who are hungry join us at this Seder, and let them partake of what we have to share.
A We may not be slaves anymore, but we haven’t forgotten what it’s like to be hungry. May all people speedily attain freedom from fear, oppression, and poverty.
L During the Passover meal we collect an offering of money to share with those who are homeless and hungry so that everyone can have enough to eat.
Mah Nishtanah
The Four Questions
Reader 1 “When your children ask you, ‘What does this ceremony mean to you?’ then tell them.” (Exodus 12:26)
Child Why is this night different than all other nights?
1)On all other nights we eat leavened bread, why do we eat only matzah tonight?
2)On all other nights we eat all kinds of vegetables, why do we eat only bitter herbs tonight?
3)On all other nights we do not dip our vegetable even once, why do we dip them twice tonight?
4)On all other nights we eat our meals sitting, why do we recline tonight?
L The LORD has commanded us to answer these questions for our children. And we will do so with grateful hearts, for the answers point to the great and mighty works of God.
Reader 1 On all other nights we eat leavened bread – bread made with yeast – but on Passover we eat only matzah – bread made without yeast. This reminds us that when we fled from Egypt we did not have time to let the bread rise.
Reader 2 On all other nights we eat all kinds of vegetables, but on Passover we eat only bitter herbs. This reminds us of how bitter life was for us in Egypt. It also serves to remind us of our slavery to sin.
Reader 3 On all other nights we do not dip our vegetables even once, but tonight we dip them twice. We have already dipped the karpas in the salt water to remind us of the bitter tears. We will soon dip again, this time in the sweet haroset to sweeten the bitterness and suffering.
Reader 4 On all other nights we eat sitting up, but tonight we eat reclining. This is to remind us that now we are free from slavery. On the first Passover we had to eat in a hurry, with our coats and sandals on, holding our staffs in our hands as we waited to be delivered from our slavery. Now we have entered into His rest and we may relax and enjoy this feast at our leisure.
L Once we were slaves to Pharaoh in Egypt, and the LORD, in His goodness and mercy, brought us out of that land with His mighty hand, and His outstretched arm.
A Had he not rescued us from the hand of Pharaoh, surely we and our children would still be enslaved, deprived of liberty and human dignity.
L We gather, then, year after year, to reenact this ancient story; for in reality is not an ancient story, but eternal in its message and strength. It is our story.
L Barukh Ha-Makom, Barukh Hu.
Barukh she-natan Torah le-amo Yisrael. Barukh hu.
A Blessed is the All-Present God. Blessed is He.Blessed is He who gave the Torah to His people, Israel. Blessed is He.
Ve-hi She-amdah
God’s Promises
L Blessed is God Who fulfills His promises, Who is ever faithful to His servants who trust in Him.
A Great has been the LORD’s divine promise, fulfilled and realized in days past. Great have been God’s promises in all ages, a source of hope to stricken and downtrodden people.
L In every age oppressors rose against us; to crush our spirits and bring us low. From the hands of all these tyrants and conquerors, the LORD has rescued and restored His people. In all these battles and desperate struggles, God’s help and guidance assured our survival.
A Our hope is strong and our faith unshakeable, that no enemy shall ever triumph over us. “We have been given possession of an unshakeable kingdom. Let us therefore be grateful and use our gratitude to worship God in a way that pleases Him; in reverence and fear.” (Hebrews 12:28)
The Story of Israel
In the Land of Egypt
Participant 1 (Jacob) I was living in Canaan – the land promised to my grandfather, Abraham – when the great famine came. There wasn’t enough food to support my sons, and their wives and their children, so I sent my boys to Egypt to purchase food for us. It was not our intention to settle in Egypt, merely to find relief from our desperate need.
Participant 2 (Moses) There were only 70 people in Jacob’s family when he first moved to Egypt, but because God was with them, they prospered and grew and grew and grew. Soon we were a mighty people of our own and the Egyptians began to fear our strength. They forced us to become their slaves, and murdered our children. Fortunately, God rescued me, and raised me up as a leader for our people.
Participant 3 (Pharaoh) The Hebrew God saved Moses and brought him to me to demand that I release the Hebrew slaves. He said plagues would come if I refused. I refused. And then I felt the power of God’s hand upon me, crushing me until I finally ordered Moses and his people out of Egypt.
Participant 4 (Miriam) Having brought us safely across the Sea of Reeds on dry land, the LORD brought the waters crashing down upon the soldiers and the chariots of Pharaoh’s army.
Oh, sing to the LORD
For He has covered Himself with glory
The horse and rider
He has thrown into the sea.
He is my God, and I shall praise Him
My father’s God, and I will extol Him
The LORD is a warrior
Yahweh is His name.
(Exodus 15: 11 – 13)
Eser Makkot
The Ten Plagues
L When people defy the will of God they bring pain and suffering upon themselves. Gods’ law aims for the welfare and happiness of all humankind. To deny His law and to do evil brings destruction for those who perpetrate it.
A When Pharaoh defied the command of God, he invited adversity upon himself and his own people.
L We do not, however, rejoice over their downfall.
Reader 2 While the Egyptians were drowning in the sea, it is said that the angels in heaven began to sing praise to God. God silenced them. “How can you sing while My children, the Egyptians, are drowning?”
L A full cup is a symbol of complete joy. And though we celebrate the triumph of our sacred cause, our happiness is not complete so long as others have had to be sacrificed for its sake. That is why we will diminish the wine in our cups as we recall the plagues visited upon the Egyptians; to give expression to our sorrow over their losses, which each plague extracted. We now recite the list of Ten Plagues, pouring off wine as each one is mentioned.
(Dip a finger into the wine and put a drop
onto the plate as each plague is named.)
A Blood!
Frogs!
Gnats!
Flies!
Cattle Disease!
Boils!
Hail!
Locusts!
Darkness!
Slaying of the Firstborn!
L Pharaoh did not want to let our people go. Every time Pharaoh said “no” to Moses, God sent a plague or disaster. But Pharaoh hardened his heart and kept saying, “No.” The tenth time, God sent the most awful plague.
A “That night, I shall go through Egypt and strike down all the first-born in Egypt, man and beast alike, and shall execute justice on all the gods of Egypt. I will do it.” (Exodus 12:12)
Dayyenu
It Would Have Been Enough
L Great and numerous are the kindnesses of the LORD. For each one of them we offer thanks and humble gratitude. Any one of His acts of mercy would have been enough to demonstrate His love for us. Dayyenu. It would have been enough.
A Had He done nothing more than take us out of Egypt, Dayyenu. (pronounced die – AY – noo.)
L With loving kindness He redeemed us from Egypt, executing judgment on our oppressors and the idols they worshipped. With awesome might He divided the Sea of Reeds, allowing our people safe passage.
A Had He done nothing more than take us out of Egypt, Dayyenu.
L To Mount Sinai He brought us and gave us the Torah, the law, the divine teaching, the crown of our life. With abundant love He gave us the Sabbath, to afford rest and refreshment for body and soul.
A Had He done nothing more than take us out of Egypt, Dayyenu.
L With tender care He protected us in the wilderness, granting shelter from the ravages of desert life. For 40 years He provided for all our needs, sending manna from heaven, food and water to sustain us.
A Had He done nothing more than take us out of Egypt, Dayyenu.
L In triumphant spirit He led us into the land of promise where inspired leaders did build the Holy Temple. How great and numerous are the kindnesses which the LORD has shown us; for each act of goodness we are abundantly grateful.
A Had He done nothing more than take us out of Egypt, Dayyenu.
L Most of all, we are thankful for Yeshua, the Messiah. In him we have forgiveness of sins, and abundant life. He is the completion of all the promises of God.
Pesah, Matzah, and Maror
The Passover Symbols
Reader 3 No Seder is complete unless it includes an explanation of the Seder symbols: Pesah, Matzah and Maror.
A (Pointing to the roasted bone) Pesah!
L The Pesah, or roasted lamb bone, reminds us the God Pasah or “passed over” the homes of the Israelites, and spared us from the final plague – the death of the first born. God commanded that we should take the blood of the lamb and put it on the top and sides of the door frames of our homes. When John the Baptizer saw Yeshua he said, “Look, there is the Lamb of God, that takes away the sins of the world.” (John 1:29)
A< (Pointing to the matzah cake) Matzah!
L Matzah reminds us that the Israelites left in such a hurry that they didn’t have time for the bread to rise. Matzah is the flat unleavened bread that our people ate during their departure from Egypt.
A (Pointing to the Haroset) Haroset!
L Haroset reminds us of the mortar our ancestors used to make bricks in Egypt. As slaves to the Pharaoh our ancestors were compelled to make the bricks that built his many monuments. Its sweetness also helps us to recall the many blessings that God has given to us.
A (Pointing to the Maror) Maror!
L Maror reminds us how bitter the Egyptians made our lives in slavery. They made our people serve with rigor and made their lives bitter with hard service in mortar and brick and in all kinds of work in the field.
Bekhol Dor Va-Dor
In Every Generation
L Be-kol dor va-dor hayav adam lir’ot et atzojm ke-ilu hu yatza mi-Mitzraim.
A In every generation it is a man’s duty to think of himself as one of those who came out of Egypt.
L Even though we live long after the Exodus, we must picture ourselves freeing slavery.
Reader 4 The struggle for freedom is a continuous struggle; for never do human beings reach total liberty.
A In every age some new freedom is won and established, adding to the advancement of human happiness and security.
Reader 1 Yet, each passing year uncovers a formerly unrecognized servitude, requiring new liberation to set human souls free.
A With every passing year the concept of freedom grows broader, widening the horizons for finer and nobler living.
L Each generation is duty bound to contribute to this growth, else humankind’s ideals become stagnant and stationary.
Hallel
Praise
Psalm 113
Alleluia!
Praise, servants of the LORD
praise the name of the LORD.
Blessed is the name of the LORD,
henceforth and forever.
From the rising of the sun to its setting,
praised be the name of the LORD.
Supreme over all the nations is the LORD,
supreme over the heavens is His glory.
Who is like our God?
His throne is set on high,
but He stoops to look down on heaven and earth.
He raises the poor from the dust,
He lifts the needy from the dunghill
to give them a place among the princes,
among the princes of His people.
He lets the barren woman be seated at home,
the happy mother of sons.
Psalm 114
Alleluia!
When the House of Israel came out of Egypt,
the House of Jacob from a people of foreign speech,
Judah became His sanctuary,
and Israel His domain.
The sea fled at the sight, the Jordan turned back
the mountains skipped like rams, the hills like sheep.
Sea, what makes you flee?
Jordan, why do you turn back?
Why skip like rams, you mountains?
Why like sheep, you hills?
Tremble, earth, at the coming of the Lord,
at the coming of the God of Jacob,
Who turns rock into pool
flint into fountain.
Kos Sheni
The Second Cup
Reader 2 “I will free you from slavery.”
L Baruk atah Adonai ga’al Yisrael.
A Praised are You, Adoani, Who saved Israel.
L Barukh atah Adonai eloheinu melek ha-olam borei p’ri ha-gafen.
A Praised are You, Adonai our God, Ruler of the Universe, Who creates the fruit of the vine.
(Drink the second cup of wine)
L May it be Your will, our God and God of our ancestors, to grant us life and to bring us, in peace, to many more festivals, holy days, and happy celebrations. May those occasions inspire us to draw closer to You.
Rohtzah
Wash Hands
L We’ve talked and asked, explained and discussed, and finally it’s time to eat! But before we do, we wash our hands again – that cool trickle of water reminding us that food is one of God’s many blessings. This time we will bless God too.
L Barukh atah Adonai eloheinu melekh ha-olam ahser kid’shanu be-mitzvotav ve-tzvanu al netilat yadayim.
A Praised are You, Adonai our God, Ruler of the universe, Who has commanded us to cleanse our hands.
(Hold the pitcher in one hand and pour water over the other. Reverse and repeat.Dry your hands and pass to the next person.)
Motzi Matzah
Eat the Matzah
Read Silently:
Between the time we wash our hands and make the blessing over the matzah, its tradition not to speak, not to interrupt the two small actions that together make one larger section.
In the silence we can hear the story we’ve just told and the Psalms we’ve read, the crack of the taskmaster’s whip and the croak of the frogs. We can hear the voice of God in the burning bush, Miriam’s tambourine, the song at the Sea of Reeds, and the stamping of the Israelite’s marching feet. We can hear the cry of the Israelites as they fled and the crunch of the matzah they baked – the same matzah we eat in remembrance today.
Who can’t wait to taste the matzah? Once it was a symbol of slavery, now it is a symbol of freedom. We take two matzah of the “Unity” – the top and broken middle pieces – to remember the food called manna the Israelites ate in the wilderness
Manna was the heavenly food that fell in a fine layer with the dew each morning. It looked like a little seed, the color of crystal or pearl, but when it was ground and baked, it tasted like a cake dipped in honey or a rich dough. Every day the Israelites went out to collect the manna. On Friday God gave them enough for that day and the next – the Sabbath, a time for rest.
Yeshua the Messiah said, “In all truth I tell you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, it is my Father who gives you the bread from heaven, the true bread; for the bread of God is the bread which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world… I am the bread of life. No one who comes to me will ever hunger.” (John 6:32 – 35)
(The Leader recites the following two blessings loud,then gives a piece of the top two matzah to every person.)
L Barukh atah Adonai elohienu, melek ha-olam ha-motzi lehem min ha-aretz.
(Praised are You, Adonai our God, Ruler of the universe, Who brings forth bread from the earth.)
L Barukh atah Adonai eloheinu, melek ha-olam asher kid’shanu bemitzvotav ve-tzvinau al akhilat matzah.
(Praised are You, Adonai, our God Ruler of the universe, Who has commanded us to eat matzah.)
Maror
The Bitter Herbs
L The maror reminds us of our persecution and suffering under the cruel hand of Pharaoh. Just as the horseradish brings tears to our eyes now, so then did our great suffering bring tears to our eyes.
L Barukh atah Adonai eloheinu melek ha-olam, asher kid’shanu bemitzvotav ve-tzvinau al akhilat maror.
A Praised are You, Adonai our God, Ruler of the universe, Who has commanded us to eat maror.
(Place maror on a piece of matzah and eat.)
L But we don’t dwell on our sadness at the Seder. After the bitterness of the maror we move on. To sweeten the sadness we shall dip the maror into the sweet haroset. This doesn’t eliminate our grief completely, but it helps us to bear it.
Reader 3 “It was at this point in the Seder when Jesus was troubled in His spirit and testified, and he said, I tell you the truth, one of you is going to betray me.” His disciples stared at one another, at a loss to know which of them he meant. One of them, the disciple whom Jesus loved, was reclining next to him. Simon Peter motioned to this disciple and said, “Ask him which one he means.” Leaning back against Jesus, he asked him, “Lord, who is it?” Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.” Then,
dipping a piece of the bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon. As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. “What you are about to do, do quickly,” Jesus told him, but no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him. Since Judas had chargeof the money, some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the Feast, or to give something to the poor. As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night. (John 13: 21 – 30).
(All eat combined matzah and maror dipped in haroset.)
Shulhan Orekh
Dinner is Served
*****
Tzafun
Find and Eat the Afikomen
(The children hunt for the Afikomen, the wrapped and hidden matzah from the “Unity.” The Leader ransoms it back from the one who finds it.)
L We call this the Afikomen, a Greek word meaning, “I have come.” It is a symbol of the Messiah, the bread of Life.
Reader 4 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty… I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats this bread, he will live forever… This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Yourforefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.” (John 6: 35, 51, 54, 58)
L Observe how the matzah is striped:
Reader 1 “But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities, the punishment of our sins was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed.” (Isaiah 53: 3)
L Observe how the matzah is pierced:
Reader 2 “They will mourn for the one they have pierced…” (Zechariah 12:10b / Revelation 1:7)
L Observe how the matzah is unleavened – made without yeast. Yeast stands for sin.
Reader 3 “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in him.” (Isaiah 53:9)
L The middle matzah from the “Unity” was broken, just as Yeshua, the Messiah was broken with suffering and death. We wrapped it in a cloth just as Yeshua’s body was wrapped in a linen cloth for burial. Just as the afikomen was hidden, so Yeshua’s body was hidden in the grave for a short time. Just as the afikomen was brought out of hiding, so Yeshua arose from the grave. Now eat, remembering the broken body of the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
(All eat a piece of the matzah.)
Reader 4 “While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying ‘Take and eat; this is my body.’” (Matthew 26:26)
Barekh
Blessing After the Meal
L Let us bless the name of God forever and ever:
A Blessed is He Whose goodness has provided for us and Whose bounties feed the entire world. In mercy He provides sustenance for all living creatures. His steadfast love endures forever.
Men Blessed is He who gives life, and life eternal.
Women Blessed is He who comforts and guides His people in times of difficulty and struggle.
Children Blessed is God. Amen.
A Amen.
L May God, Who is merciful, bless this home and all homes everywhere. May He bless this table upon which we have eaten, with plenty and abundance.
A Amen.
L May God, Who is merciful, bless those who are assembled at this table, their loved ones, their families,and friends, even as He blessed our forefathers: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
A The LORD will never forsake the righteous nor shall their children hunger for bread. May the LORD give strength to His people; may He bless them forever.
L For all these blessings, and so much more, we give thanks to You, Lord God. We ask for Your loving protection over our people everywhere. May we be spared sorrow and adversity; but if they come, LORD, we ask that You’ll lead us through. We hope for the privilege of always being able to serve You.
A Amen. May the LORD give strength to His people.
(Raise cups.)
Kos Sh’lishi
The Third Cup
Reader 3 “I will save you with My outstretched arm.”
L Barukh atah Adonai, eloheinu melek ha-olam borei p’ri ha-gafen.
A Praised are You, Adonai our God, Ruler of the universe, Who creates the fruit of the vine.
(Drink the third cup.)
Reader 1 “Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, ‘Drink form it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.’” (Matthew 26: 27 – 28)
Kos Eliyahu
The Cup of Elijah
L Throughout our people’s history, Elijah the prophet has been the beloved character pictured in legends as the bearer of good tidings.
Reader 3 Jewish legend recalls the appearance of Elijah in times of trouble, to promise relief and redemption, to lift downcast spirits and to plant hope in the hearts of the downtrodden.
Reader 4 The cup of Elijah was a cup of expectation. An empty seat, a cup of wine, and an open door were traditionally left in hopes that hew would come – even during the celebration of the Seder meal for it is written, “Look, I shall send you the prophet Elijah before the great and awesome Day of the LORD comes.” (Malachi 4:5)
L The disciples asked Jesus, “Why then do the teachers of the Law say that Elijah must come first?” Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished, In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” (Matthew 17: 10 – 12)
A Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them about John the Baptist (Matthew 17:13), of whom it was written, “And he will go on before the Lord in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous – to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.” (Luke 1:17)
Hallel
Praise
(Everyone stands.)
Psalm 116
Alleluia!
I am filled with love when the LORD listens
to the sound of my prayer,
when He bends down to hear me,
as I call.
The bonds of death were all round me,
the snares of Sheol held me fast;
distress and anguish held me in their grip,
I called on the name of the LORD.
Deliver me, LORD, I beg you.
The LORD is merciful and upright,
our God is tenderness.
The LORD looks after the simple,
when I was brought low He gave me strength.
My heart, be at peace once again,
for the LORD has treated you generously.
He has rescued me from death, my eyes from tears,
and my feet from stumbling.
I shall pass my life in the presence of the LORD,
in the land of the living.
My trust does not fail, even when I say,
”I am completely wretched.”
In my terror I said,
”No human being can be relied on.”
What return can I make to the LORD
for His generosity to me?
I shall take up the cup of salvation
and call upon the name of the LORD.
I shall fulfill my vows to the LORD,
witnessed by all His people.
Costly in the LORD’s sight
is the death of His faithful.
I beg You, LORD! I am Your servant,
I am Your servant and my mother was Your servant;
You have undone my fetters.
I shall offer You a sacrifice of thanksgiving
and call on the name of the LORD.
I shall fulfill my vows to the LORD
witnessed by all His people,
in the courts of the house of the LORD
in Your very heart, Jerusalem.
Psalm 117
Alleluia!
O praise the LORD, all nations,
extol Him all peoples,
for His faithful love is strong,
and His constancy is never ending.
Psalm 136 - "Forever"
(words and music by Chris Tomlin and Jesse Reeves)
Give thanks to the Lord, our God and King
His love endures forever.
For He is good, He is above all things.
His love endures forever.
Sing praise. Sing praise.
With a mighty hand and an outstretched arm
His love endures forever.
For the life that’s been reborn
His love endures forever.
Sing praise. Sing praise.
Sing praise. Sing praise.
Forever God is faithful.
Forever God is strong.
Forever God is with us.
Forever. Forever.
From the rising to the setting sun,
His love endures forever.
And by the grace of God we will carry on
His love endures forever.
His love endures forever.
Sing praise. Sing praise.
Sing praise. Sing praise
Kos Revi’l
The Fourth Cup
Reader 4 “I will take you to be My people.”
L Barukh atah Adonai eloheinu, melek ha-olam borei p’ri ha-gafen.
A Praised are You, Adonai our God, Ruler of the universe, Who creates the fruit of the vine.
(Drink the fourth cup.)
L As indeed He says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘My People,’ and her who was beloved I will call ‘Beloved.’ And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they shall be called children of the living God.” (Hosea 2:23 / Romans 9:25 – 26)
Nirtzoh
End of the Seder
L The prescribed order of the Passover service is now compete. We have retold the ancient story of Israel’s liberation. We have shared in the traditional foods and symbols of the struggle for freedom. Between now and our next Seder we hope for peace and freedom the world over. May we remember throughout the year that our redemption and peace is complete by the sacrifice of our Passover Lamb, Yeshua the Messiah.
L The Passover celebration is a fulfilled celebration. All expectations are met in the person of Jesus Christ. He is our matzah – the Bread of Life. The wine is His blood poured out for us in the new covenant. He is our Passover Lamb – Who takes away the sins of the world. And we have come through Him to the New Jerusalem.
Reader 1 “You have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the Living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.” (Hebrews 12: 22 – 24)
A We have come through Him to the New Jerusalem!
Even though i've not responded to some of the critisms above, i want folks to know that i have taken them seriously....
and here now, that i have a few minutes during the food prep for tonights passover/last supper celebration, i'll make a quick response.
as far as the Lamb bone: many Jewish groups don't eat lamb for the passover anymore because, as has been pointed out, there is no temple at which to sacrifice the lamb. At our observances we don't eat lamb either - because 1) no temple and 2) because the lamb is just a symbol pointing to Jesus (the lamb who takes away the sins, yadda yadda yadda...)
I've tried to make it clear that all the symbols within the meal are just that, symbols pointing to something else, and that that something else is Jesus. I thought i had done pretty well making that clear. Perhaps i haven't done as well as i had thought. Your comments may result in some changes for next year's observance.
as far as Judeaic rabbinical, Talmudic legalism... we don't get too caught up in that - for example, i'm not overly concerned about strict Kosher laws (which are well and above the restrictions God put down, anyway) we eat meat and dairy, i don't use seperate pots and pans, etc.... The passover was made for us to enjoy. we weren't made for the passover (to paraphrase one 1st century Rabbi.)
jeff
There is no life without prayer. Without prayer there is only madness and horror. - Vasilii Rozanov
Jeff, very cool; personally I think it would be very cool to once a year do observe those restrictions. I don't; in the future I will try to; I think they would serve as a good reminder of many things...such as cleanliness before God, the bondage of the law, etc.
I've got to say that this stuff makes me really nervous. Today's Hebrew - the language and people - are demonstrably NOT the Hebrews of old. This ritual contains hand-washing, avoids certain foods (in favor of bitter ones) in Pharisaic fashion (which was condemned by our savior.)
Note the reference to Hosea's promise of restoration: they believe it is yet to come!
Lastly, today's Jews can lay no claim to a literal, physical descendancy from Jacob - and their scholarship admits that. Why do we persist in sitting at the feet of the rabbi in order to aquire a "Hebraic mindset?" How can we dote over this stuff while these "Hebrews" will not reject their Talmud?
I see no "beauty" in a ceremony denying the fulfillment of Israel's redemption by a people having no claim to Israel - but instead persists on holding to Passover by rote. It's dead and lifeless; full of the oral teachings and applied to a people that compositely reject our Savior.
For His Kingdom,
-Brad
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Why do we persist in sitting at the feet of the rabbi in order to aquire a "Hebraic mindset?
Because we want to...and because we find relevance in our practices of faith.
Virgil, I would encourage you to get familiar with the roots of modern Judaism.
"Pharisaism became Talmudism, Talmudism became Medieval Rabbinism, and Medieval Rabbinism became Modern Rabbinism. But throughout these changes of name, inevitable adaptation of custom, and adjustment of Law, the spirit of the ancient Pharisee survives unaltered. When the Jew reads his prayers, he is reciting formulae prepared by pre-Maccabean scholars; when he dons the cloak prescribed for the Day of Atonement and Passover Eve, he is wearing the festival garment of ancient Jerusalem; when he studies the Talmud, he is actually repeating the arguments used in the Palestinian academies." - Rabbi Dr. Finkelstein
"The Talmud is to this day the circulating heart's blood of the Jewish religion. Whatever laws, customs or ceremonies we observe — whether we are Orthodox, Conservative, Reform or merely spasmodic sentimentalists — we follow the Talmud. It is our common law." - Herman Wouk
"The Bavli [Babylonian Talmud] has formed the definitive statement of Judaism from the time of its closure to the present day." - Rabbi Dr. Neusner
I won't take up bandwidth with the sick, perverted examples of the Talmud that stand in direct opposition of the inspired Word we hold to. How can we have both the view that the Talmud is anti-Christian, yet maintain Christianity has its roots in Judaism (a term that was, by the way, coined only in the 15th century?)
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Brad...you are arguing apples and oranges here. I have no interest in Judaism, or anyones opinion of it. I do however want to learn more about the Hebrew and eastern mindset, philosophy and interpretation of the scripture.
I also want to learn how to better my relationship with God by learning from how the Jewish people practiced their faith for thousands of years.
Also, I don't remember claiming that the Talmud is inspired...where did anyone here suggest that? Can you at least give me the credit for being intelligent enough to differentiate between rabbinical writings and the Bible, or do you think that I need someone to constantly remind me that?
Virgil, respectfully (and as gently as I can say this) you aren't listening!
>> you are arguing apples and oranges here.
Hardly. If you want to understand the "Hebraic" mindset from the Jewish people, then you are gaining a Talmudic mindset - because (as I just established with the quotes - did you read them?) the Talmud IS the "holy" book of the Jewish people.
Please note that I did NOT say it is YOUR holy book. Where, in my previous posts, did I say that? Frankly, I'd like to ensure it DOESN'T become your holy book, because it is antagonistic to the Inspired Word.
You've claimed that the Jewish people [of today] have practiced their faith for thousands of years. Yet, their own scholarship, as well as history, proves that today's Ashkenazi Jew didn't arrive on the scene until the 6th century AD. They are from a mongolic/turkic mix of people called the "Khazars" from the steppes of the Caucasis mountains. Their entire empire, which was powerful and large from the 6th-9th century, adopted Judaism by decree. Don't believe me - look in any Jewish encyclopedia.
By the way, Ashkenaz was from Gomer, and Gomer was from Japheth - not Shem. These people aren't Semite at all.
>> Can you at least give me the credit for being intelligent enough to differentiate between rabbinical writings and the Bible
Virgil, I certainly don't mean to insult you. But when you play in the mud with white gloves, the gloves get muddy (the mud doesn't get "glovey!")
You say you "want to learn how to better my relationship with God." Turning to the writings and teachings of a people that compositely REJECT our Savior is not consistent with the desire to learn truth.
The New Covenant was characterized by the prophet Jeremiah (Jer 31:31F) by the "writings on the hearts and minds" of the covenant people the law. I'm asking you: are today's Jewish people characterized by the writings on their hearts and minds the eternal, moral laws of Yahweh God??? They REJECT our Savior (resulting in them being, per the Apostle John, "antichrist.")
Virgil, how can you be preterist in your understanding, yet still be trying to gain insight through shadows?
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Brad...I simply do not care. You continue to act as if I need your advice regarding the practice of my faith, when I did not really ask for it, my friend. :)
I read, learn and study from whatever means I deem necessary and beneficial to my faith, whether it is the Quran or the Talmud. There are positive things to learn and gain everywhere around us, even those things you call "shadows." One can tell a great deal of details about the real thing by looking at the shadow of the thing; your insistence on throwing away everything just because you find it "troubling" simply does not cut it for me. You feel free to do that...I am choosing another methodology and means of studying.
Certainly it's good to read the Quran and the Talmud. One of my favorite quotes is from Herman Hesse (in a decidedly non-Biblcal work): "Truth is Truth, from whatever the source."
It's also true that you are to work out your own salvation (Phillipians 2:12.) We have way to many folks that don't dare think something other than their pastor/Tim LaHaye/televangelist thinks. It's wonderful that you would stubbornly pursue Truth!
What I'm witnessing, though, is not that. Jesus was clear about the Pharisees in Matthew 23:
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness."
So here we have:
1. Jesus railed against the Pharisees as worthy of receiving judgment, and that believers should avoid their "leaven."
2. Today's Jewish scholarship openly maintain that the root Judaism is the Talmud, which came from the Mishnah, which came from Pharisaism, which came from the exile in Babylon.
3. However, we need not admit that Pharisaism exists today, nor be concerned with its leaven.
Go figure.
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Wow Brad! That's mighty powerful stuff.
Hope you don't mind if I ask the obvious question,but if Jewry of today is neither spiritual or physical Israel, who is?
Or does it even matter?
Patman
Preterists clearly don't agree on the nature of Israel today. Some claim that today's Jews comprise literal Israel. Some claim that God no longer works with literal, physical Israel today. So people (like Todd Dennis) believe that Israel was a type of Jesus (!). Many believe that, through miscagenation, they disappeared as a people. Some believe the restoration of the tribes was at the time of the return out of Babylon; others (rightfully) hold to a literal restoration in the 1st century.
So, what we have here is a very serious problem. The nature of the covenant people of Yahweh - the bride of the Creator of the Universe, who alone was given the adoption, the covenants, redemption and the glory - is up in the air!
Preterists are all over the road regarding the timing and nature of the Kingdom. It's very sad, because an understanding of Israel and her Kingdom is FUNDAMENTAL to our faith.
I believe literal, physical Israel was - and still is - the mechanism through which the blessings are given all the peoples as chiefs and priests; we can find NO WHERE in the inspired Word that this has changed somehow between the old and new covenants.
To answer your question: literal physical Israel must exist today, or Yahweh failed and the prophets got it wrong - this (and the eternal nature of Yahweh's laws) is where I seriously depart from most preterists.
There is only one people who have all the markers of Israel: the Anglo/Saxon, Celtic, Germanic, Scandinavian and kindred peoples. Biblically, historically, anthropologically, archaeologically the evidences are there (even etymological proofs!); what remains is our willingness to deal with the profound implications.
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"There is only one people who have all the markers of Israel: the Anglo/Saxon, Celtic, Germanic, Scandinavian and kindred peoples. Biblically, historically, anthropologically, archaeologically the evidences are there (even etymological proofs!); what remains is our willingness to deal with the profound implications."
Brad, I don't want to be overly harsh, but this is hogwash. Not to flash credentials, but my doctoral field of study is Indo-European (and particularly Germanic) historical linguistics. Not only is there a complete and total lack of solid archaeological or linguistic evidence for what you're saying, there is a host of evidence against it.
Listen, I'm sure you'd like to believe this for some good reason, but please let me assure you that there are plenty of other, more knowledgable people who would also like to believe such poppy*****, but whose expertise and integrity will not allow them to ignore the facts in order to believe it. Let me guess: your primary source is one particular book by some notable, yet unaccountably unrecognized scholar (probably of Hebrew) who shows you lists and lists of words in Germanic/Celtic (which are worlds apart even from each other) and Hebrew that seem similar enough to prove common origin beyond a reasonable doubt.
This view raises its ugly head every few years and is stamped out like the weed it is. And before you ask me for my evidence or start to list yours, allow me to defer to THE TOTALITY OF NON-THEOLOGICALLY-MOTIVATED BIBLICAL, HISTORICAL, ANTHROPOLOGICAL, AND LINGUISTIC SCHOLARSHIP for defense of my viewpoint. Here's a great list of coincidental false cognates, most of which can be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt to be complete coincidences:
http://members.aol.com/yahyam/coincidence.html
Even Joseph Greenberg wouldn't try to make most of these work. For a critique of mass lexical comparison, the extremely problematic method developed by Greenberg that underlies your theory, see this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_lexical_comparison
Ransom, you've made your point that you are "qualified" to dispute this. I'm just a programmer. But, must I point out that really smart people hold to the evolutionist paradigm, and heavily schooled preachers hold to false doctrine. The older I get, the more value I find in a person's willingness to be RIGHT than appeal to their academic credentials.
Moving on - this is from one of my recent blogs:
"Scarcely a Hebrew root can be discovered that has not its corresponding derivation in the ancient British language... In Richard's Welsh and English Dictionary (published in Bristol in 1750) and in several other philological works, the affinity the Welsh bears to the Hebrew language is strenuously maintained. But not only do the words themselves indcate that similarity between the two; their variations and inflexions afford a much stronger proof of affinity." - Rev. Elieze Williams, born 1754, Vicar of Lampeter, Britain.
For those maintaining there is no etymological link between the Anglo/Saxon, Celtic, Germanic, Scandinavian and related peoples to the Hebrews, let us agree that if we find a preponderance of root Hebrew words engrained in our lexicons, we find the peoples. The following list of English / Hebrew linked words comes from Professor Edward Odlumn, M.A.B.Sc., F.R.C Inst., 1916:
English Word / Hebrew (Meaning)
Bashful / Baash (Abashed, uncomfortable, abhorred)
Rabble / Rab (Rabble, rout, multitude)
Cipher / Saphar ( To count or cipher, as in arithmetic)
Sake / Sakan (Profit, for the sake of)
Sore / Tsur (Distress, soreness)
Sorrow / Tsarar (Sorrow, inflicted with trouble)
Shiver / Sheber (Shiver, break, shiver my timbers)
Puke / Pook (To puke, put out)
Chill / Chil (Pained, chilled, made uncomfortable)
Rash / Raash (To be angry, to rage)
Ahah / Ahah (Ahah, an exclamation of supprise)
Terrible / Teruah (A battle shout, awful, terrible)
Mellow / Melo (Mellow, ripe, fullness, maturity)
Bad / Bad (Alone, cut off from otheres, separate, bad in state)
Hollow / Holhul (Empty, hollow)
Cane / Cana (Cane, reed, coarse grass)
Direct / Derek (Right, straight, direct)
Call / Kol (Voice, shout, call)
Room / Rum (Make tall, a space, enlargement)
Shame / Shamen (Amazed, astounded, shamed)
Mar / Mar (Bitter, spoiled, married)
Char / Charah (to burn char, as in charcoal)
Suck / Suk (to draw out, as to suck)
Keel / Kell (A vessel, a ship, as twenty keel)
Ruts, or rut / Rutz (Rut, runner, run)
Cover / Kaphar, kafar (to cover)
Sum / Sum (Total, count, as to sum)
Urge / Ur (To push, press, stir up)
Reckon / Arak (To array, set in order, count, reckon)
Dumb / Dahm, dohm (Dumb, silent)
Bar / Barzel (Iron, iron bar, or bar-iron, barrel of gun)
Raven, ravan / Ravah (To satiate, to raven or ravage)
In / In (In, within, inside)
Carats / Charuts (Best gold, carats, a standard for diamond)
Shoo / Shua (To shout, to say shoo, to chase)
Ceres / Keres (Cereals, beaten out grain)
Sure / Shur (To see, examine, make sure, be sure)
Nod / Nud (To nod, to approve)
Holiday / Hulledeth (A holiday, or birthday)
Halleluiah / (To rejoice, to praise, to shout in song. Ref "Yah" to "Yahweh")
Amass / Amas (To amass, or increase)
Berry / Peri (Fruit, berry, pear)
Harass / Haras (Destroy, worry, harass)
No / No (Disallow, annul, to say no)
Horrid / Orits, or arats (Terrify, make terrible, or horrid)
Ore / Or (Horizon, light, shining metal as zinc ore, orange)
Angle / Angl (Bull, as Taurus a bull, John Bull)
Mote / Motz (Chaff, dust, as cast out the mote)
Earth / Retz (Land, earth)
Ad / Ad (Till, until, up to, as in adjoin, attain, adept)
Nag / Naga (To smite, plague, worry, nag)
Yes / Esh, or yesh (Yes, to say yes)
Hurrah / Ruah (To shout, to call out, sigh of triumph)
Soothe / Suth (To persuade, soothe)
Sack / Saq (A bag, or sack)
Satin / Sadin (Cloth, garments, linen cloth)
Shekel / Shekel (Mondy, as a shekel)
Push / Poosh (Scatter, push, rout)
Anglesey / Angl (A bull)
Ely / El (God)
Hebride / Heber (The Hebrew)
Guernsey / Gur (To sojourn)
Perish / Parash (Scattered, routed, lost, perished)
Oath / Oth (An oath, a sign, a testimony, an agreement)
Din / Din (Strife, noise, din)
Pen / Pen (An enclosure, as sheep-pen)
Ramify / Ramas (To creep, or ramify)
Put / Putz (To scatter, to put to flight)
Hum / Hum (To move, to make things move, or hum)
Mal / Maal (To trespass, mal-administer malady)
Raid / Radah (To tread-down, to raid, destroy)
Mirror / Marah (Looking glass, mirror)
Pass / Pasa (To step, go, go apart)
Shut / Shut (To go to and fro, to close)
Cave / Kaph (Hollow, as a cave)
Hug / Ug (To squeeze, press; the English say "hug" to this day)
Bore / Boar, baar (To bore or dig)
Bag / Bag (Booty or haul)
Bad / Bad (To prate, to lie to be a liar, bad)
Bedeck / Bedeck (To repair, to ornament, bedeck)
Booth / Bothe (To pass the night in a tent or booth)
Batter, or bat / Batsah (To destroy or batter)
Bolt / Bala (To swallow, as bolt his dinner)
Band / Banat (To band, or to make a band)
Bear / Baar (Brutish, stupid, coarse)
Barley / Bar (Corn, as in barley)
Break / Barach (to break)
Broth / Baroth (Food, broth or soup)
Balsam / Basam (To smell sweet, with a sweet odour)
Bath / Bath (A measure for liquids)
Camel / Gamal (the camel)
Gay / Ga (Elated, proud, purffed up, gay)
Gosling / Gozal (A young bird, as a gosling)
Gush / Gush, or goosh (To pour out, as to gush)
Gala / Gal (Exultation, a gala-day, a day to rejoice in)
Clad / Galad (To cover, as clad)
Gargel / Gargareth (Throat, gullet, to gargel the throat)
Crash / Garash (To crush, or to crash)
Grip / Garaph (To grip, seize, snatch)
Dote / Dot (To love, to dote upon)
Down / Doon (To press, tread, to be down)
Endure / Door (short "o" as "doore") (To dwell, as to dwell within, to endure)
Door / Dor (long "o") (To swing to and fro)
Dyke / Dayik (To dyke or mound)
Deacon / Dekon (A registrar, or one who registers)
Dedicate / Daleketh (Weak, sick, feverish)
Damask / Damesk (A kind of silk damask)
Dagger / Dakar (To stab, hence the thing that stabs)
Thrash / Darah (To beat, or thrash)
Ebony / Eben, or habeny (As ebony wood)
Hag / Hagah (To mutter, one who mutters, a hag)
Adore / Hadar (To honour, reverence, adore)
Haze / Haza (To dream, to be in a haze)
Hin / Hin (A measure)
Lad / Galad (To bear, to beget, as to bear a lad or child)
Sud, or suds / Zud, or zood (To boil, bubble, hence suds)
Contaminate / Tamah (Unclean, contaminated)
Contain / Tanah (To enclse, contain)
Yell / Yelail (To yell, or cry out)
Caddy / Kad (A chest, pail, box)
Come / Kum (To advance, join, as "come here")
Calcine / Kalal (To kindle, burn, to calcine)
Gnaw / Knaw (To bite, sting, gnaw)
Knee / Kanah (To bend, to kneel)
Cap / Kapis (A tie, cross-beam, a tie-cap as in building)
Car / Dar (Lamb, ram, battering-ram, the machine or car, or wheeled machine for battering)
Grab / Karab (To grab, grip, grasp)
Circus / Karak (Circle, surround)
Carmine / Karmile (Red, crimson)
Carpet / Karpas (Cotton-stuff)
Career / Karar (To go around, dance, roll, turn, career)
Cotton / Kuttoneth (Cotton, flax, linen)
Succatash / Katash (To bray, grind, pound, prepare grain by braying)
Even with these proofs, some will argue in vain that the Hebrews simply influenced "gentile" languages through trade, a presumed linguistic superiority or through their faith.
Nevertheless, where we find their language, their faith and their culture, we find who they are and where they resided throughout history. It should also be noted that many (if not most) of the word origins in http://members.aol.com/yahyam/coincidence.html are found in Semite peoples. Regarding your Wikipedia reference: I found nothing here that would draw one to the conclusion that an etymological relationship does not exist between ancient Hebrew roots and the Celtic languages (especially Gaelic and Welsh.) All it seeks to do is categorize established or presumed relationships.
What I'm hearing from you is this: I must be holding to these things because of some motive or personal need. Do you have a doctorate in some branch psychology as well?
>> This view raises its ugly head every few years and is stamped out like the weed it is.
And what precisely IS this "ugly view?" Please try to answer without using tired phrases like "anti-Semite", "racist" or "bigot" - I'm long past engaging in coversation with a person that resorts to that.
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Cipher and Angle came from Arabic, not Hebrew.
In my Aramaic New Testament, there's one place where erth is translated earth.
A lot of those words came from Phoenician through Celtic. From the time of Abraham until Julius Caeser's war against Gaul, the Phoenicians were the ship builders and ship captains of the world. The Celts and Gauls supplied labor for ship building in Tarsus and manned these ships, especially in the Atlantic and North Sea.
Do a similar comparison to Phoenician, Aramaic, and Arabic (all similar Semetic languages) and I bet you'll find closer matches.
Blessings,
JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science
JL, you're absolutely right! I also have in my posession a chart displaying Phoenician vs. English - same phenomenon.
The Phoenicians were a semetic people; neighbors of the northern House of Israel. They were indeed ship builders; their ships were used in silver and tin mine trading hundreds of years before our Christ was born, and had traversed the oceans (including the Americas.)
Galatia was called the "Gaul of near-Asia." Iberic (Spain), Irish, English and Scottish history is full of history and legend tying their genetic heritage to the Cimmerians and the Scythians, Khimeroi, Saccae, Khumri/Ohmri (the Assyrian name for the Diaspora) etc. We have historical evidences, such as the Assryian tablet and the Bahistan stones, comfirming who these people were, where they went, etc.
There is indeed similarity the root words found in all semetic languages. The problem is that we have misidentified what people were "semetic!"
>> The Celts and Gauls supplied labor for ship building in Tarsus and manned these ships, especially in the Atlantic and North Sea.
This is absolutely true. But to draw a conclusion - as many have - that the Celts and Gauls adopted all or part of the Phoenician language as a result is unjustifiable. In reality, there were already a great number of similarities in not only the language, but the culture. Remember - God promised that the seed of Abraham would number as the stars in the sky, and the sands in the sea!
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Brad,
God did promise that the seed of Abraham would number as the stars of the sky and sands of the seashore.
But realize how that Hebraic figure of speech works:
"The Philistines assembled to fight Israel, with three thousand chariots, six thousand charioteers, and soldiers as numerous as the sand on the seashore." (1 Sam. 13:5 NIV).
For more examples, see Josh. 11:4 and Judges 7:12. This is a Hebraic figure of speech; it was never intended to be taken in any literal sense as you seem to imply above.
The other problem is that promise was fulfilled in the days of David and Solomon:
"So I advise you: Let all Israel, from Dan to Beersheba—as numerous as the sand on the seashore—be gathered to you, with you yourself leading them into battle." (2 Sam. 17:11 NIV)
"The people of Judah and Israel were as numerous as the sand on the seashore; they ate, they drank and they were happy." (1 Kings 4:20 NIV)
"Praise be to the LORD, who has given rest to his people Israel just as he promised. Not one word has failed of all the good promises he gave through his servant Moses." (1 Kings 8:56 NIV)
Here's your problem. You are looking for some kind of biological interpretation of the kingdom. But notice that Israel came out of Egypt as a "mixed multitude" (Ex. 12:38). That means the race issue was never an issue from the birth of the nation. It was never about biological lineage. Never.
What I find ironic is that you react to anything "Jewish" yet you are defining the covenant as a Jew in the first century would - biological lineage. Can you see your glaring self-contradiction?
Paul taught that the children of Abraham were those who lived by faith as Abraham. Biology and lineage has nothing to do with it. Please, stop the Jewish nonsense,
Blessings,
Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org
Tim:
First off, I want you to know that I have hold a great deal of respect and admiration for you and your work tying fulfilled eschatology with the Genesis account and the flood. I know that our disagreement in this area won't change that.
You brought up an excellent point: that the "stars in the sky" language is an Hebrew idiom that should be tempered by context. You quoted 1 Sam. 13:5, Josh. 11:4 and Judges 7:12. I agree! But here is the problem. I Yahweh were to say to Abram: "Your seed will be really, really great in number," how Would He do it without exaggeration?
Historically, we know that these people were truly great in number. Josephus wrote: "...the Ten Tribes who are beyond the Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude, whose numbers cannot be estimated." (Antiquities 11:2)
In your quotes from Samuel, Joshua and Judges, the numbers were certainly not beyond estimation. Even as early as the time of Samuel, the children of Abraham were certainly all over the literal (pagan) world! This thread of the Hebrew people comprising the great city were but a very small portion of the total. As you cited from 1 Kings 8:56, He DID keep His word!
>> Here's your problem. You are looking for some kind of biological interpretation of the kingdom
I believe that the Kingdom here on earth is from Heaven. It is not Heaven - it is FROM Heaven. It is the establishment of Yahweh's eternal commandments, statutes and judgments - here on earth.
The Kingdom is heavenly, but is implemented here on earth by His covenant people - a nations of chiefs and priests; His servant people (Hos. 1: 10; 2:23; Mic. 7:18.) The Kingdom was given to Israel (Romans 9:4). It is the "shining city on the hill" through which all the peoples of His creation are to be blessed (Micah 4:1-3.)
You bet I'm looking for a biological interpretation of the (heavenly) Kingdom! That's the whole idea! But this "biological interpretation" does not involve a literal temple and a literal city. It's His government. It was clear at the North Carolina conference last year that leading preterists differ wildly in their interpretation of the Kingdom (which is very, very worrisome, because the Kingdom was the focus of our Savior's ministry.)
Has Yahweh ceased to implement His Will upon His creation? Has the mechanism through which His government is administered to the world (Israel) somehow changed between the old and new covenants? HAS HE CAST AWAY HIS PEOPLE?
Here is an uncomfortable question: to whom was the promise of the New Covenant given? Are we told that it was given to any other people than the people to whom He is husband, Israel? (Luke 7:16, Luke 1:77, Rom 11:26, Luke 1:72-73, Heb. 2:16, Luke 1:54-55, Luke 1:33, Luke 24:21, Acts 28:20, etc.)
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." (Jeremiah 31:31-33)
Note that the witer of Hebrews quoted Jeremiah in Hebrews 8:8F and applied these things to that day! So, yes, they were great in number. The two houses were restored. Their Savation and their redemption has taken place ! OK - NOW WHAT?
... He [Yhshua] will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His kingdom will have no end. (Luke 1:33)
...YOU [see - 1 Peter 1: 1-31 are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession [Ex. 19:5-6; Deut. 14:2], that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him [Isa. 43:1, 10, 21; 44:231 who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were not a people [YHWH divorced the house of Israel and they lost their identity as Israel -"ruling with El(ohiym)"], but now you are the people of God [made possible through redemption in Yhshua the Christ]; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy [forgiveness of your sins - Hos. 1: 10; 2:23; Mic. 7:18]. (1 Peter 2:9-10)
>> But notice that Israel came out of Egypt as a "mixed multitude" (Ex. 12:38).
Tim, you're really good at exegesis. I'm asking you to apply that talent now. How can it be that Israel was a "mixed people" when coming out of Egypt, but centuries later, upon returning from Babylon, the people must not be mixed? Here, you have taken one verse (which is a reference to the strangers that went with Israel out of Egypt) and have attempted to circumvent the many, many verses affirming that Israel must not be mixed! (ie: Ezra 10:2.3, Ezra 10:10,11, Jude 1:7, Judges 11:2, Lev 22:10, Proverbs 22:14, etc.)
In fact, misagenation is a trangression:
"Shall we then hearken unto you to do all this great evil, to transgress against our God in marrying strange wives?" (Neh 13:27)
Israel was to SEPARATE themselves:
"And the seed of Israel separated themselves from all strangers, and stood and confessed their sins, and the iniquities of their fathers." (Neh 9:2)
>> What I find ironic is that you react to anything "Jewish" yet you are defining the covenant as a Jew in the first century would - biological lineage.
I am not defining the covenant as something that guarantees salvation and redemption outside of His saving Grace, and our faith in Him (Galations 3:26-29.) Paul was dealing with that problem in Galatia. The people to whom he was talking were Israelites (audience relevance!) who mistakenly thought that their genetic heritage was sufficient for their salvation. Paul corrected them; that only those Israelites who also BELIEVED (wht the "faith of Abraham") would be counted as Israel.
In addition, I would point out that it is today's Jews that hold to a the Pharisaical view of a literal, physical Kingdom, and salvation is appliable to them and them alone. Let's take up this discussion with the rabbi, shall we?
>> Can you see your glaring self-contradiction?
No - just the opposite :) You see, I do not "spiritualize" Israel, or attempt to redefine it in any way. Literal, physical Israel is forever. That was the promise. Either they exist today as the covenant people, or God failed.
... He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His kingdom will have no end. (Luke 1:33)
Literal, physical Israel remains the vehicle that our God uses to bless all the peoples of the world. They administer the Law. It was to them (and them alone) the covenants and the glory were given. Why do we, as preterists, feel it necessary to blow them away?
For His Kingdom,
-Brad
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Tim,
I'm not big into on-line arguments, but I have a question concerning your statement:
"It was never about biological lineage. Never."
Was Ezra,in Ezra 9&10, wrong in throwing such a hissy-fit concerning the race-mixing that occurred amongst Israel after their return from Babylon?
To me, that seems to contradict what you stated.
But, I've been wrong before, once or twice. :)
For Jesus,
Patman
Tim,
I'm not big into on-line arguments, but I have a question concerning your statement:
"It was never about biological lineage. Never."
Was Ezra,in Ezra 9&10, wrong in throwing such a hissy-fit concerning the race-mixing that occurred amongst Israel after their return from Babylon?
To me, that seems to contradict what you stated.
But, I've been wrong before, once or twice. :)
For Jesus,
Patman
Patman,
I think you'll agree with me that Ezra must be understood within the context of the Law. Notice what the law said about marrying foreign wives:
"When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife." (Deut. 21:10-13 NIV)
The Law allowed Israel to marry foreign women (though this did not apply to the original conquest of Canaan - all the nations at that time were under the ban). The shaving of hair is a ceremonial picture of conversion. So, I would say that the act of marrying foreign women, in a physical sense, cannot be the sin referenced in Ezra.
What Ezra is condemning is the idolatry that Israel accepted from their foreign wives. This is always the condemnation - the men chased after, not just foreign women, but their foreign gods. Foreign marriage on those terms was condemned by Ezra, but it was ultimately because of idolatry.
BTW, I believe the principles of the OT and Ezra apply within the NC as well, particularly when it comes to Christians marrying today. Christians are called to seek spouses who are either Christians already, or who convert to Christ immediately before the marriage.
This proves once again that biology lineage was never the issue. The issue is faith. The children of Abraham are those who demonstrate their faither's faith. Biological lineage has nothing to do with it, for Jesus told the people in his day that they were not children of Abraham (for they did not manifest Abraham's faith), but children of the evil one.
It was never about biological lineage. Males born into a Hebrew household were not even considered Hebrew until they were circumcised. Could there be an OC Hebrew merely by birth? If a man was not circumcised, did not partake of any of the religious duties at all, was he still considered a Hebrew? No he was not. That again shows that biological lineage was never the point.
It was never about biological lineage. Never. There are lots of ways this could be demonstrated. Modern dispensationalists (along with the Jews of the first century) focus on the biological lineage because they do not know the Scriptures. Israel came out of Egypt a "mixed multitude." They were a mixed nation from the very beginning. God seeks a people set apart by faith.
Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org
Tim I know you are familiar with my writings concerning the intermarriage. But for those who are not I’ll expand and update it a little.
Amen to your setting the record straight. In my article posted here on PP titled “East of Eden Revisited” I highlighted the intermarriage problem that was manifested in the early generations of the Seth lineage of the “sons of God”. If you read the Jewish history and writings that abounded before Christ you will see that this corruption from marriage as you have outlined is exactly the problem.
Seth’s lineage which started out calling on the name of the Lord ( “ Gen 4:26 Seth also had a son,….. At that time men began to call on the name of the LORD”) eventually brought God’s wrath upon them by intermarrying and corrupting this seed line’s purity by the same destructive evil forces that God continually wanted kept out of his “children” the same goes for today as you have stated.
“Gen 6: 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose……5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time”
As I stated above the Jewish literature reinforces this understanding by describing this intermarriage problem as the culprit that continually brings God’s condemnation and judgment.
Here is an excerpt from the ancient writing called “The Second Book of Adam and Eve”
“Chap. 22:3 Then after this, the children of Seth went astray and fell, they, their children and their wives. And when Enoch, Methuselah, Lamech and Noah saw them, their hearts suffered by reason of their fall into doubt full of unbelief; and they wept and sought of God mercy, to preserve them, and to bring them out of that wicked generation. “
Here is the reason given in this ancient writing of the Jews about why the Flood came upon them.
Chap. 19: 8…They began to go down from the Holy Mountain one after another, and to mix with the children of Cain, in foul fellowships.”
Chap. 20:31 And when they looked at the daughters of Cain, at their beautiful figures….the fire of sin was kindled in them. 32 Then Satan made them look most beautiful before the sons of Seth….until they committed abomination with them. 33 But after they had thus fallen into this defilement, they returned ….but they could not…34 And God was angry with them, and repented of them because they had come down from glory, and had thereby lost or forsaken their own purity or innocence, and were fallen into the defilement of sin.”
This old story tells how evil entered into the “seed” line of Seth in strong detail and since that line carried the promise of deliverance, (Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.") God was determined that it would be kept pure thus we have the Flood and many other judgments all dealing with the “seed” line.
Ezra 9:11…'The land you are entering to possess is a land polluted by the corruption of its peoples. By their detestable practices they have filled it with their impurity from one end to the other. 12 Therefore, do not give your daughters in marriage to their sons or take their daughters for your sons….Shall we again break your commands and intermarry with the peoples who commit such detestable practices? Would you not be angry enough with us to destroy us, leaving us no remnant or survivor?
Blessings
Norm
Norm, I know you directed this thread to Tim. However, I'd like to point out some things. First, Tim did not "set the record straight" - he opened the floodgate of investigation. I want to do that!
>> If you read the Jewish history and writings that abounded before Christ
What "Jewish writings" are these? The Second Book of Adam and Eve are certainly not inspired text, and their origin is certainly questionable. The Adam and Eve writings (Hebrew in origin, not "Jewish") affirms that black people were at the funeral of Adam.
>> This old story tells how evil entered into the “seed” line of Seth
This story - and that is what it is - does not differ significantly, as presented, from the biblical account. Mixing with other peoples is an "abomination" (did I misread that?) Is not the term "corrupting the seed" used? What does that mean?
As I stated in another thread, to presume that an understanding of Yahweh's reason why miscagentation is forbidden (dangerous exposure/acceptance of the "gods" of the other peoples) somehow exempts modern man from intermarrying makes no sense at all. Certainly that was an issue:
To deliver thee from the strange woman, even from the stranger which flattereth with her words; (Proverbs 2:16)
For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil: But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a two-edged sword. Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell. (Proverbs 5:5)
But, is it the only issue? How are the covenant people to retain their physical distinctiveness, as promised by God to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and still engage in the inarugably grievous sin of misagenation? This makes no sense!
My question is: where, in the Bible (not "Jewish" resources) do we find that these constraints were removed, and are no longer considered sin?
Using the Bible, and the Bible alone, let's look at other reasons why such a restriction was placed.
1. Israel shall not have a stranger lead over them (Deut 17:15, Psalms 144:11, Psalms 18:44.) This is a curse (Ezekiel 11:9, Jer 30:8, Jer 5:19, Lamentations 5:2, etc.)
If Israel were to miscagenate, how can we know that strangers aren't ruling among them?
2. Strangers Shall Not Assemble With Israel (Ezekiel 44:9, Job 15:19, Joel 3:17, Numbers 16:40, Numbers 18:4, etc.)
If Israel were to miscagenate, how can we know that strangers aren't assembling with Israel?
Shechaniah the son of Jehiel knew this: "Now therefore let us make a covenant with our God to put away all the wives, and such as are born of them, according to the counsel of my lord, and of those that tremble at the commandment of our God; and let it be done according to the law." (Ezra 10:2.3)
Or the fate of Jepthah: "...Thou shalt not inherit in our father's house; for thou art the son of a strange woman..." (Judges 11:2)
3. Israel is not to fornicate. We've got a problem here, because miscagenation is a form of fornication:
"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." (Jude 1:7)
To get around this, you have to redefine "strange flesh" as being specific, say, to homosexuality. Even so, homosexuality was sin. Is it no longer sin? What other sins can we now throw away?
Miscagenation is certainly not highly regarded:
But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband! (Ezekiel 16:30)
There is one law - and one way - for all peoples (Leviticus 24:22 and many others.) But there IS a distinction made in the assembly, redemption, places of refuge (Numbers 35:15.) There is even a distinction made as to where they are buried (Matthew 27:7)
"Gather the people together, men and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law..." (Deut 31:12)
But, notice that the stranger is separate from the covenant people. Please show me anywhere in the BIBLE where, in the New Covenant, that these constraints are no more.
For His Kingdom,
-Brad
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Brad,
I expect readers to focus on what I have written and properly discern the context of my usage of ancient literature. I’m writing here to clearly indicate that this piece of historic literature sheds light on how the ancients think. I’m not out to prove or disprove someone’s pet theory on the Jewish factor. I was simply illustrating that Jewish/Hebraic culture produced this writing some time before Christ and it indicates that this particular writer or writers were commentating on their interpretation of Genesis 2 through 6. The context of my article does not rest upon the reliability of this writing. I could pull out other ancient writings to reinforce the same concept as well. Furthermore even if this writing does support your claim that there were black people at Adam’s funeral “big deal” this book is what it is and if it reflects contemporary dogma within its writing it wouldn’t be the first author to have done so. Remember I said it was literature not scripture. It just so happens to illustrate well the early problem of intermarriage bringing about the degradation of the spiritual levels that God desires/expects for his sons and daughters starting with that generation preceding Noah.
My post premise was very simple and I will restate it for clarity.
The “seed” line of Christ starting with Seth and continuing today with “sons of God” under the new covenant are all under the instruction to not unite yourselves with unbelievers. It’s the same story from beginning to eternity.
(Rom 8:14 NIV) because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
(2 Cor 6:14 NIV) Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
Blessings
Norm
Norm:
Thanks for the congenial reply. This is indeed a topic that folks avoid.
>> The “seed” line of Christ starting with Seth and continuing today with “sons of God” under the new covenant are all under the instruction to not unite yourselves with unbelievers.
Truly, we find biblical support for your assertion that Israel should not unite with unbelievers. But, as I have asked before, where do we find biblical support that the clear mandate against miscagenation has been lifted?
>> Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
Amen. But here's the problem: how can we take this passage and apply it to support the idea that miscagenation is no longer a sin? Looking at the context of 2 Corinthians:
1. Paul is talking to Israelites of the Disapora (1 Cor 10:1-3) that were known as Gentiles (1 Cor 12:2) They were regarded as circumcised and heathen by the Jews.
2. Paul applies, in verse 17, a quote from Isaiah 52:11:
"Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD."
Isaiah was certainly speaking to a literal, physical people; a literal seed. Paul is applying this to the Corinthians: their BODIES are the temple. Using Isaiah's admonistion to the covenant people, Paul also tells the Corinthians to "come out." He says they will then be "sons and daughters" in verse 17 (quoting 2 Samuel 7:14) In 2 Samuel 7, the context is demonstrably literal, physical Israel:
"Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime..."
"Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle..."
Throughout his writings, Paul employs references to the prophets to the people to who he is talking, and applying it to them:
"O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? " (1 Cor 15:55)
This refers to Hosea 13, a prophet to the House of Israel! "Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me."
Paul is talking to a people to whom the promises were given. What reason would there to be, in those "last days" especially, to "yoke" themselves with non-believers of any racial heritage?
Paul so often takes the words of the prophets that were given to Israel and applies it to THEM. The promises of restoration and redemption belonged to them! These promises were given to no other people. So, why in the world should they mingle with unbelievers?
"…Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate Yahweh? Therefore is wrath upon thee from before Yahweh." (2 Chronicles 19:2)
This is the context. Paul gives no license for Israelites to miscagenate.
>> It’s the same story from beginning to eternity.
The story, from the beginning, is God's dealing with his people.
"The Bible is not a history of the human race at large, but one distinct strain of people amongst the family of races. All the other races are considered with reference to it…. The Bible deals with one race, which flows like a Gulf Stream through the ocean of humanity. As the actual Gulf Stream touches two continents and blesses the nations, so this race, in its origin, history and destiny, was selected and equipped for the service of the nations..." (William Cameron)
So, we're back to the nagging questions:
1. Where does the Bible say that miscagenation is no longer a sin?
2. Even *if* God's major concern with miscagenation was specific to the potential of other peoples to bring other gods and other faiths into Israel, why should that alone cause us to conclude that miscagenation is no longer sin; that God somehow changed His mind?
Respectfully submitted,
-Brad
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>> Ezra must be understood within the context of the Law.
To what "law" are you referring, Tim? The Mosaic Law Covenant - the statues and judgements consisting of the ceremonial and sacrificial "elements" that were added, or the eternal commandments, statutes and judgments of Yahweh? This is a very serious problem in the reformed faith. It's called "antinomialism."
There is a difference. When Paul said: "For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God..." what LAW was he referring? But, David said he LOVED the law! Which is it??
Do you see the problem? We can't pick and choose what stays and what goes. Miscagenation is at the time of Ezra and Nehemiah was sin (Ezra 10:2.3, Ezra 10:10,11,Neh 13:27) and Israel was to separate themselves from the strangers (Neh 9:2). What passage do you use to say what what was once sin is no longer sin? The patriach Isaac ensured Jacob/Israel himself took a genetically compatible wife!
If we redefine sin this way, what else will we remove? Homosexuality? False witness? Adultery?
We can no more simply say the "law" was nailed to the cross. His eternal laws are with us now, and forever, or our God failed. After all, a characteristic of the new covenant is that the LAW is written on our hearts and minds! To go against them is sin - then, as now.
>> Notice what the law said about marrying foreign wives [Deut. 21:10-13]:
This law was dealing with the marriage and taking of women which Isarelite men were lawfully allowed to take. It is not a license to take a woman which is prohibited by Law. Israel was inarguably forbidden to take a wife from among the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and the Jebusites (Deut 20) for a reason - HIS reason. How can we say that the tribal distinctions can be maintained in Israel (say, the Levitical priesthood) without mandating genetic distinction?
"On that day they read in the book of Moses in the audience of the people; and therein was found written, that the Ammonite and the Moabite should not come into the congregation of God for ever;" ((Nehemiah 13:1)
"A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD... An Ammonite or Moabite shall not 1 enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever: " (Deut 23:2,3)
>> The Law allowed Israel to marry foreign women (though this did not apply to the original conquest of Canaan - all the nations at that time were under the ban).
The Law allowed Israel to marry among RACIALLY-RELATED foreign women. The clear restrictions in Ezra were long after the original habitation of Canaan.
>> So, I would say that the act of marrying foreign women, in a physical sense, cannot be the sin referenced in Ezra.
You're kidding, right? Let's look:
And that we would not give our daughters unto the people of the land, not take their daughters for our sons: (Nehemiah 10:30)
And the seed of Israel separated themselves from all strangers, and stood and confessed their sins, and the iniquities of their fathers. (Nehemiah 9:2)
And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous... ((Nehemiah 9:8 - see also Gen 15:18, Num 34:2, Deut 1:8, 2nd Chron 9:26)
And the rest of the people, the priests, the Levites, the porters, the singers, the Nethinims, and all they that had separated themselves from the people of the lands unto the law of God, their wives, their sons, and their daughters, every one having knowledge, and having understanding... (Nehemiah 10:28)
Now it came to pass, when they had heard the law, that they separated from Israel all the mixed multitude. (Nehemiah 13:3)
Shall we then hearken unto you to do all this great evil, to transgress against our God in marrying strange wives? ((Nehemiah 13:27)
>> What Ezra is condemning is the idolatry that Israel accepted from their foreign wives.
Show that to me, in the inspired word! Surely, these were people that were charaterized by worshipping other gods. But, when Nehemiah said that the one of the sons of Joiada was expelled because he "defiled the priesthood, and the covenant of the priesthood, and of the Levites" the context was transgression by intermarrying with these people (Nehemiah 13.)
Tim, you have to say something has changed between then, and now. That it is no longer a transgression to intermarry. Whether you want to focus on His INTENT doesn't really matter - it's a transgression anyhow.
>> Foreign marriage on those terms was condemned by Ezra, but it was ultimately because of idolatry.
Has this changed?
>> BTW, I believe the principles of the OT and Ezra apply within the NC as well, particularly when it comes to Christians marrying today.
Honestly, you do not. You're essentially saying this: if a foreign woman is a believer, it's OK to marry them. Where do we find this provision in the Word of God? It's an idea; a thought - a feeling that sounds right to us.
>> This proves once again that biology lineage was never the issue.
This is where you've blown Israel away. The Bible says precisely the opposite. We find no where in the Bible where strangers can become Israel. We find that they can join with Yahweh, partake of the blessings of Israel, and live in the land as Sons of God. But, they are not the nation of chiefs and priest. They were not the "special treasure." They cannot be redeemed. The covenants were not given to them - only to a literal, physical people. Tim, look carefully at what you're doing here...
>> Jesus told the people in his day that they were not children of Abraham (for they did not manifest Abraham's faith), but children of the evil one.
Book/Chapter/Verse? Let's deal with this.
>> Males born into a Hebrew household were not even considered Hebrew until they were circumcised
Any person today, still, who is uncircumsized (in their heart) cannot be counted as the seed of Abraham. This is hardly an argument, because circumcism has always been a requirment for the covnenat people.
>> It was never about biological lineage. Never. There are lots of ways this could be demonstrated.
If you mean that salvation is afforded by race alone, then I would agree. But to say that biological lineage doesn't matter with regard to Israel, I would challenge you to come up with more substantive proofs.
>> Modern dispensationalists (along with the Jews of the first century) focus on the biological lineage
What you're engaging in here is "guilt by association.:"
1. Today's dispensationalists are in error
2. Dispensationalists hold to a physical Israel
3. Therefore, the idea of physical Israel is false
>> They were a mixed nation from the very beginning.
From the very beginning, they were a distinct people. His plan was (and still is) to keep them that way!
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Brad,
If you don't mind, could I bother you a little bit concerning a couple of the points you brought out?
"A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD... Deut 23:2
From the studies I've done concerning mongrelizing,(otherwise called adultery),
the Hebrew word for bastard in this verse is
mamzer and it means mixed-breed or mongrel.
Since it mentions a tenth generation bastard,
that seems to indicate a physical-genetic
situation. Not a word about the faith of the individual is mentioned.
It's a shame that the meanings of words change so much and people don't understand the original meaning at the time of the translation.
Let me put it this way,imagine instead of
" You shall not commit adultery",it read,
" You shall not mongrelize".
At the time the KJV translators used the words bastard and adultery, they carried a much different connotation than they do now.
Well, I can imagine this train of thought won't go over very well with most people , but it does make sense to me, and I might add, the majority of Western Christendom agreed with me on this topic not all that long ago.
I'll just step back for a while.
For Jesus and His Kingdom,
Patman
Patman:
First, I want to make it clear this has nothing to do with "hate" or some presumed superiority of one race over another. That's silly (and unbiblical.) This has to do with the Will of Yahweh God, and some good old common sense.
"Every beast loveth his like…. All flesh consorteth according to kind, and a man will cleave to his like." (Ecclesiasticus 13:15-16)
"…Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee." (Leviticus 19:19)
It's in our hearts and our minds what it right & natural, and what is not. I think we struggle to recast what we instinctively know as right into man's moral terms in order to express our inoffensiveness or desire to be percieved as open, tolerant and personable.
The passage you brought up addresses whether the verses I've just quoted above have to to simply with livestock and clothing, or with something deeper. Here is your passage:
"A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of YHWH; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of YHWH. " (Deuteronomy 23:2)
The Hebrew word "mamzer" used here (translated "bastard" in the KJV) is found in Strongs:
"…To alienate; a mongrel, i.e. born of a Jewish [Israelite] father and a heathen mother."
This means that the offspring of a mixed marriage are prohibited against entering into the congregation.
Yahweh dictated racial separation in many places in the Word: Exodus 33:16, Leviticus 20:24-26, Numbers 23:9, Deuteronomy 32:8, 1 Kings 8:51-53, Acts 17:26, etc. He intended his laws concerning this separation to be communicated and adhered to: 1 Kings 8:41-60, Isaiah 2:2-3, 49:3-6, 56:3-8, Mark 16:15-16, etc.).
Israelites were forbidden to take strange wives from Canaan, Moab, and Ammon - even though they were racially alike - because those lines resulted from incestuous relationships. These peoples were in and around Judah at the time, but were separate!
When I was a kid, this stuff was generally not debateable. We knew what was right and what was wrong. Growing up on farms, we were steeped in our Creator's perfect "kind after kind" Creation. Each of His Creation is good, and beautiful in its own distinctive way. Now, however, we're told that "diversity" found in different ethnicities is good and desirable, yet we're "all the same." Go figure.
Some apologetics: Moses and Adoniah, Joseph and Asenath, Salmon and Rahab, and Boaz and Ruth were not racially mixed relationships. I won't take the time here to address them all (let me know if you want me too, though.) Bottom line: Midianites (like Zipporah or Adoniah) were Semites and racial kinsmen to the Israelites. The word "Ethiopian" in Strongs:
"…Patronymically from OT:3568; a Cushite, or descendant of Cush."
But we know the Cushites were descendants of Cush, Noah’s grandson by Ham (Genesis 10:6)
So why do we assume an ancient Ethiopian MUST be black? Also, Psalms 78:50-51, 105:23-27, and 106:21-22 affirm that the Egyptians (Asenath, Josepth's wife) of that day were Hamites. (Genesis 41:45)
The Canaanite Rahab cannot be a good example of an "exception" as well. She may have been a Canaanite by marriage, and was called a "Canaanite." But even if she WERE a true Canaanite, it is untenable that Yashua would have been born of a forbidden lineage (Deuteronomy 7:1-3). There is no evidence that the Rahab of Matthew 1:5 is the Rahab of Joshua 2.
More later if needed... thanks for checking in, Patman!
For His Kingdom,
-Brad
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Brad,
Thanks for replying to my previous post.
Let me add a story here concerning my comments about "adultery" and it's true meaning.
For several years I owned and operated a meat processing plant and we were "licensed", meaning we had to follow the USDA rules and regulations
pertaining to meat inspection and all that.
In a conversation with the meat inspector I asked him the meaning of "adulterate", since their big thing is contamination and adulteration of meat products.
He read the pertinent regulation and definition from the FSIS handbook. The meaning, of course,
had nothing to do with being unfaithful to ones spouse but concerns the making of something impure by adding another ingredient, thereby making it adulterated or not pure. I asked him if "committing adultery" would be the same as "adulterating" and he said the regs didn't use the term adultery but he definitely understood my point. He told me he had been a Sunday School teacher for many years, but had never considered adultery in that light before.
That's one story, FWIW
Take care,
Patman
I believe this issue of physical lineage goes WAY back:
"These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and PERFECT IN HIS GENERATIONS, and Noah walked with God." (Genesis 6:9)
Am I supposed to "spiritualize" this too?
Everywhere I look in the Inspired Word, physical seed matters. In fact, from Genesis to Revelation, I see the other peoples of the earth mentioned only in the context of their interaction with the covenant people.
Why bother with types and antitypes if there is only a spiritual realm? Why a giving of the law? Why an avenging of the faithful saints and a reward for a race run to the end?
Did God say to Abraham: "I know I said 'seed' - and I know you might think 'seed' - but I really mean a cohesive, multi-ethnic group of believers in stuff that sounds kind of like what I'm telling you.'"
I know I'm "supposed" to believe in ANY kind of Israel other than a non-Jewish literal, physical Israel. I see many different interpretations of Israel within the preterist camps. However, the one version of Israel that I hold to - the one I can use the Bible markers to identify - must not be considered.
How very odd!
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Okay, let's see if I understand this correctly.
The very people,"White Christendom", who have most strongly supported "Jewry" and the Middle-Eastern State of Israel, are actually "Israel"
themselves? While the "Jews" who collectively are "anti-Christian" are not Israel at all?
Talk about Irony. God help us.
Patman
Interesting, but I would argue that including the Korban (lamb bone) is counterproductive to Christian doctrine. See 1 Cor 5:7 . It clearly is a vestige of corruption, and further veils the fact that Christ also took the place of that lamb.
Blessed in His rest,
A&R
Actually the imagery indicates quote the opposite. The Orthodox Church for example has traditionally practiced eating lamb before Easter as a reminder of Christ's sacrifice and our life coming out of him (and quite literally being alive as a result of eating the lamb). I don't think it's a corrupt practice, I believe that it is a creative use and a creative re-telling of the Biblical narrative in the context in which we find ourselves today.
My reason for saying that using a lamb bone is a corruption is based on the abscence of texts stating that a lamb bone was an acceptable alternative to a whole lamb.
Interesting tidbits I find on Wikipedia:
"In subsequent years, during the existence of the Tabernacle and later the Temple in Jerusalem, the Korban Pesach was eaten during the Passover Seder on the 15th of Nisan. However, following the destruction of the Temple, no sacrifices may be offered or eaten. The story of the Korban Pesach is therefore retold at the Passover Seder, and the symbolic food which represents it on the Seder Plate is usually a roasted lamb shankbone, chicken wing, or chicken neck."
"Today, in the absence of the Temple, the mitzvah of the Korban Pesach is memorialized in the form of a symbolic food placed on the Passover Seder Plate, which is usually a roasted shankbone. Ashkenazic Jews have a custom of not eating lamb or goat during the Seder in deference to the absence of the Temple. Many Sephardic Jews, however, have the opposite custom of eating lamb or goat meat during the Seder in memory of the Korban Pesach."
Many references to the Temple destruction... interesting... :)
The only reason I would even consider the perpetuality of the Pesach for Christians is because of textual arguments (which I have actually been confronted with).
Blessed,
A&R
Very rich and creative. Exactly the spirit of Christianity. Fresh, new, and imaginative.
Sam
This is really cool. I'm going to a Passover feast this Sunday, and I had wanted to look into it more, to be able to show up looking at least semi-intelligent about the feast. What a great starting place, coming on here, and being able to read this. :)
One word: Awesome!!!