You are hereNew blog option to be added soon to Planet Preterist

New blog option to be added soon to Planet Preterist


By John - Posted on 03 November 2004

You may have heard about "bloggers" or "blogs" recently. Well, we have decided to add a blog feature to our website, so that each registered user will be able to maintain a regular "journal" or blog here -- you will now be able to post your own ideas, articles and comments on a regular basis.Please give us some feedback and comments on this feature, and let us know if you have any ideas on how we should go about making this feature available. Maybe you already maintain a blog and want to incorporate some of its features here? Your comments are encouraged...

chrisliv's picture

Sure,

Sounds great.

But, would comments that didn't reflect a right-wing view, like the one below, stand a better chance of not being censored and deleted for political incorrectness in the Blog area?

Peace to you all,
C. Livingstone

Virgil's picture

You don't come here to make a political statement, and you should understand that Planet Preterist is a private website where admins can delete whatever comments they deem inappropriate. Your accusations against Bush of killing thousands of innocent people in Iraq are WAY out of bounds. I shouldn't have to be the one telling you that. If you are a Michael Moore fan, go to his website...Planet Preterist will not help you promote these views.

chrisliv's picture

Well,

They are not my views.

I'm just sharing the new and relevant information published by the scientists at the Lancet Journal. Lancet is the UK equivalent to the North American AMA, and the Brits are part of the so-called "coalition" fighting in Iraq, so this information shouldn't be scoffed at as some Michael Moore propaganda.

Peace to you all,
C. Livingstone

EWMI's picture

Virgil, should we fear discussing the dead as a result of the invasion? We seem to be prepared to discuss abortion. Are we pro life if the life in question is unborn western children but not pro life is the life in question is Iraqi?

Virgil's picture

I won't allow Planet Preterist to be the platform where anyone will call President Bush a criminal or an outright murderer - that just won't happen. If anyone has a beef with Bush, please take it somewhere else. There are more valid and better ways to criticize the president, without displaying an outright whacko attitude, which chrisliv borderlines on.

EWMI's picture

Now I am confused ...

If I were an American I would be a Republican. I am not and never have been left leaning. Nobody who knows me would ever call me a liberal etc. And I feel that PlanetPreterist is a wonderful ministry which is affecting the world. But I am beginning to wonder if the tone of PP is becoming too partisan. Are we in danger of losing our objectivity?

Quoting you: "I won't allow Planet Preterist to be the platform where anyone will call President Bush a criminal or an outright murderer - that just won't happen."

Also Quoting you: "The bottom line is that a vote for John Kerry is a vote against yourself, and you could, and you most probably will pay for it with your own life or a portion thereof."

How do we reconcile these quotes? We won't call the encumbant a murderer or criminal, but we will call the unelected (and unelectable) just that. Would we have called Reagan a man of forsight for Iran Contra and Clinton a criminal for Kosovo?

chrisliv's picture

Yeah,

I have a good deal of respect for Virgil's efforts and Preterist Planet. The truth about fulfilled eschatology is important.

Maybe it's just the election period and the articles giving high-praise to Bush that is leading, inevitibly, to clashes with those of opposing views.

It's no secret that Virgil is a staunch Republican. And the recent survey on this website demonstrates that about 70% of the participants at PP are right-wing in their orientation.

But, I do hope that Preterist Planet doesn't develop into a club where only Ann Coulter male-counterparts are allowed to post their views.

When I criticize guys like Bush, it's with the same degree of criticism that I level at guys like Kissinger, Clinton, JFK, LBJ, Carter, Pinochet, Reagan, Hussein, Suharto, Samosa, et al. They are all responsible for the death of thousands of defenseless men, women, and children. To say otherwise is a denial of reality.

Peace to you all,
C. Livingstone

Virgil's picture

I am not sure why you keep making references to "right wingers" as if you are trying to make me (us) feel bad, or as if I am ashamed of being one. As Ann Coulter said, we are also known as "American Patriots"

To take an announcement about the availability of a blog, and turn it into a political argument is just stupid! If you need me to tell you what you can and can post on a blog here, then I think you have more serious problems to worry about. You are not a child.....at least I hope not. Be mindful of the environment here, stop likening Bush with Hitler, or posting stupid crap that would only come out of Michael's Moore's mouth.

If you don't like it, you can always find another website where you can keep the admins busy.

EWMI's picture

You Are Absolutely Right! The Blog section is a tremendous idea that I am sure will be used by many of us.

Keep up the good work.

Seeker's picture

What would you know about reality Chrisliv?

Also, this is a PRIVATE website. Virgil can make whatever rules he wants to.

Seeker

Seeker

Seeker's picture

We ared definitely pro-life in Iraq. We have just saved perhaps millions of lives by our invasion. All you look at are the deaths instead of the lives we've saved.

Sure there are innocents who have died, but the vast majority of those who have been killed, deserved it - they were terrorists (of course this does not include our own soldiers who have died for a noble cause).

Seeker

Seeker

davo's picture

Perhaps Virgil it might pay to read the report mentioned:

Mortality before and after the 2003 invasion of Iraq: cluster sample survey

Les Roberts, Riyadh Lafta, Richard Garfield, Jamal Khudhairi, Gilbert Burnham

[quote] Summary: Background In March, 2003, military forces, mainly from the USA and the UK, invaded Iraq. We did a survey to compare mortality during the period of 14•6 months before the invasion with the 17•8 months after it.

Methods: A cluster sample survey was undertaken throughout Iraq during September, 2004. 33 clusters of 30 households each were interviewed about household composition, births, and deaths since January, 2002. In those households reporting deaths, the date, cause, and circumstances of violent deaths were recorded. We assessed the relative risk of death associated with the 2003 invasion and occupation by comparing mortality in the 17•8 months after the invasion with the 14•6-month period preceding it.

Findings: The risk of death was estimated to be 2•5-fold (95% CI 1•6-4•2) higher after the invasion when compared with the preinvasion period. Two-thirds of all violent deaths were reported in one cluster in the city of Falluja. If we exclude the Falluja data, the risk of death is 1•5-fold (1•1-2•3) higher after the invasion. We estimate that 98000 more deaths than expected (8000-194000) happened after the invasion outside of Falluja and far more if the outlier Falluja cluster is included. The major causes of death before the invasion were myocardial infarction, cerebrovascular accidents, and other chronic disorders whereas after the invasion violence was the primary cause of death. Violent deaths were widespread, reported in 15 of 33 clusters, and were mainly attributed to coalition forces. Most individuals reportedly killed by coalition forces were women and children. The risk of death from violence in the period after the invasion was 58 times higher (95% CI 8•1-419) than in the period before the war.

Interpretation: Making conservative assumptions, we think that about 100000 excess deaths, or more have happened since the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Violence accounted for most of the excess deaths and air strikes from coalition forces accounted for most violent deaths. We have shown that collection of public-health information is possible even during periods of extreme violence. Our results need further verification and should lead to changes to reduce non-combatant deaths from air strikes. [end quote]

Published online October 29, 2004

The Report

Comment

davo

Waidmann's picture

Dave,

The problem I have with surveys like this is that it is relying on the local population for it's information. It should be obvious by now that the entire culture has no Western Civilization concept of "truth". Nothing they say can be believed. It may be true or it may not be. "Truth" is not a concept that has any particular value to them.

Waidmann

EWMI's picture

"Truth" is not a concept that has any particular value to them.

Waidmann, I am not sure our culture has any concept of truth either. It is pretty obvious that 100,000 is on the low end. We need to consider that for every ten killed on the spot several die later from related injuries. We are not likely to ever learn the final number. God help us!

Waidmann's picture

It's pretty obvious to who, based on what?

The comment that "most of the causalties were caused by coalition forces" is another statistic that needs to be taked with a lump of rock salt. The jihadist have been killing Iraqis by the boatload.

The overall picture probably shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, but there is sure no reason I am aware of to actually believe it accurate. It most likel,y isn't.

Waidmann

Ozark's picture

Aljazeera—that great bastion of truth—is reporting 37,000 civilian deaths since the war began in March, 2003. They said they are 100% certain this number is correct.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/66E32EAF-0E4E-4765-9339-594C323A7...

The Iraqi Body Count Website says the maximum dead is about 16,352.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

This same website reports that the number of named and identified deaths to be slightly above 3,000

Both these sources are biased. Who are you going to believe?

chrisliv's picture

Well,

Obviously, those committing atrocities will tend to minimize or deny their actions, unless they're terribly brazen. And those who are being victimized may exagerate war crimes.

But, the best source of information may be independant scientists who present credible, verifiable evidence which is actually incriminating to themselves as a people.

The recent Lancet study is a good example, since the UK is a "Coalition" military force in Iraq. And I'll include a clip from an Australian scientist below, which includes excess mortality increases data on Iraqi children since the first Gulf War in 1991, in which more than a decade of US led economic sanctions and tons of depleted uranium (DU) spewed around that landscape has certainly caused.

All of this stuff is well known, except by the US military personnel who are also being contaminated by the depleted uranium that they are breathing into their lungs, causing birth defects in their own children too.

Peace to you,
C. Livingstone

...My estimates of excess mortality for Iraq are consistent with the under-5 infant mortality in Iraq, estimated from UNICEF data to be 3.3 million since 1950 and 1.2 million in the period 1991–2004.

Excess mortality and infant mortality have declined dramatically for nearly all developing countries outside Africa over the past 50 years. In Iraq, excess mortality and infant mortality reached a minimum in the 1980s. However, this decline reversed after the 1991 Gulf War. According to UNICEF, in 2001 the under-5 infant mortality was 109,000 in Iraq, which has a population of about 24 million, compared with about 1000 in Australia, which has a population of about 20 million.

Rulers are responsible for the ruled. Accordingly the occupying Coalition, including Australia, is clearly responsible for the continuing excess mortality and infant mortality in Iraq. Both are estimated to be currently of the order of 100,000 per year, or about 300 per day.

John Valder, a former president of the Liberal Party, has recently called for war crimes trials of the leaders of the Coalition, adducing the illegality of the invasion of Iraq (The Age, 9 April 2004). Mass mortality in a conquered population also constitutes a war crime, as well as a humanitarian tragedy. The actual Iraqi death toll is not being reported and publicly discussed. Ignoring mass human mortality in Iraq amounts to holocaust denial.

Dr Gideon Polya recently retired as a senior biochemist at La Trobe University. He is the author of the pharmacological reference Biochemical Targets of Plant Bioactive Compounds.

conScience is a column for Australians to express forthright views on national issues. Views expressed are those of the author.

Ozark's picture

Mr. Livingstone,

You are biased. I am too, but at least I will admit it. You are quoting only the most extreme sources on the matter. I don’t know who this Lancet group is, but if they are truly scientists, they out to be ashamed of themselves. If we apply just a little common sense, it becomes obvious that their statements are not just extreme, they are ludicrous. Take this one:

“The major causes of death before the invasion were myocardial infarction, cerebrovascular accidents, and other chronic disorders whereas after the invasion violence was the primary cause of death. Violent deaths were widespread, reported in 15 of 33 clusters, and were mainly attributed to coalition forces. Most individuals reportedly killed by coalition forces were women and children. The risk of death from violence in the period after the invasion was 58 times higher (95% CI 8•1-419) than in the period before the war.

Interpretation: Making conservative assumptions, we think that about 100000 excess deaths, or more have happened since the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Violence accounted for most of the excess deaths and air strikes from coalition forces accounted for most violent deaths.”

Most individuals killed by the coalition forces were women and children? So, all these smart bombs were in reality missing the bad guys and finding women and children? 100,000 excessive deaths? What exactly are excessive deaths? Civilian I assume? Think about that number. If I recall, about 63,000 Americans died in the Vietnam War. Are you saying about two thirds more than that have died from misguided air strikes in Iraq?

Let’s look at another.

“Rulers are responsible for the ruled. Accordingly the occupying Coalition, including Australia, is clearly responsible for the continuing excess mortality and infant mortality in Iraq. Both are estimated to be currently of the order of 100,000 per year, or about 300 per day.

John Valder, a former president of the Liberal Party, has recently called for war crimes trials of the leaders of the Coalition, adducing the illegality of the invasion of Iraq (The Age, 9 April 2004). Mass mortality in a conquered population also constitutes a war crime, as well as a humanitarian tragedy. The actual Iraqi death toll is not being reported and publicly discussed. Ignoring mass human mortality in Iraq amounts to holocaust denial.”

Excuse me? I seem to remember a fellow named Saddam Hussein. Have you forgotten him? He was the one using oil money for palace building instead of the needs of his own people. I have a friend that spent about six weeks in Iraq working on getting a new clinic built. (Yes, the Americans are doing more than blowing things up. They are restoring power, clean water, reopening schools, supplying text books, building and reopening hospitals, and yes, bringing a chance for freedom. Not to mention the gospel too. Many Iraqis are coming to the Lord.) He said he routinely heard that Saddam had murdered as many as seven million of his own people.

You may recall at the beginning of the invasion many U.S. citizens went to Iraq to serve as human shields if necessary to stop the war. They quickly came home. Do you remember why? The Iraqis people sent them. They wanted Saddam out of power. Now to blame all the evil in Iraq on the coalition and not even mention Saddam and still call yourself a scientist, that is pitiful. Even if you believe the invasion was the wrong move, do you really think the Iraqi people were better off under Saddam Hussein? Answer me that.

If you want to hear a little of the other side of the story, here is a good article by an Australian fellow that appeared in the Wall Street Journal.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110005676

Ed's picture

Give 'em hell, Doug. Amen, and amen.

ed

Papa is especially fond of us

Ozark's picture

The more I research this 100,000 figure, the more it looks like a figment of extremist imaginations. The Iraqi Civil Defense Authorities said there were 2,278 civilians killed in the first gulf war. There were 97,722 more than that killed in the second war? Far more air strikes were made in the first war than the second. This number is obviously politically motivated. Probably aimed at getting George Bush out of office. The liberal media gladly swallowed this extremely bloated number.

chrisliv's picture

Well, Ozark,

If you're not comprehending what the concept of excessive deaths means, here's another article, entitled, 100,000 Dead, which may help:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=6565%20

Your example of Sadaam is a poor one. Wash DC was a big supporter of Sadaam during his worst atrocities, which pales in comparison to what is occuring now. With 20 million Iraqis, it's beserk for someone to say Sadaam murdered 7 million Iraqis.

Wash DC and US corporations have a long history of supporting Middle Eastern dictatorships and atrocties, beginning in 1951, when the CIA was involved in a coup to overthrow nationalist Prime Minister Dr. Muhammed Mossadeq in Iran. It supported the Iranian military massacre of Mossadeq supporters and returned the Shah to power. In 1976, Amnesty International concluded that the Shah's CIA-trained security force, SAVAK, had the worst human rights record on the planet, and that the number and variety of torture techniques the CIA had taught SAVAK were "beyond belief."

The record of US-sponsored dictatorships and puppet regimes is very well known, and continues to this day, with Musharraf (Pakistan), the Al-Faud dynasty (Saudi Arabia), the former Taliban government member Harmid Karzai (Afganistan president), and Sadaam's former assasin, turned CIA-asset, turned interm Iraqi president Ayad Allawi.

So, you said it yourself, you're biased.

Lancet is the UK equivalent of the AMA.

Peace to you,
C. Livingstone

Ozark's picture

Mr Livingstone,

I realize this 100,000 was thrown about by a lot of people. If you know even a little about how this war was fought, to say this many were killed by errant air strikes is not just exaggerating, it is imbecilic. This number was based upon a supposed poll not bodies produced. There were only about 3,000 of those. Where did the rest go? Rapture? Then to say that there were almost fifty times the civilians killed in this war than there were in the Gulf War. Do you really believe that? And you are not biased?

Perhaps the U.S. should have never supported Saddam. George Bush did not make that mistake, but he is correcting it. That is a bad thing?

There were no politicians using your argument against this war and occupation. They all used the WMD reasoning. The reason is that you are left having to prove that the Iraqis were better off under Saddam. Can you?

Yes, the seven million number is greatly exaggerated, but the same people who produced it also came up with your 100,000.

EWMI's picture

While I know that much of this ordinance was aimed at combatants more urban airstrikes happened in the 03 war than previously.

Air War Statistics
Total Air Sorties- 41,000
Strike Sorties- 15,500
Bombs Dropped- 27,000

The source of these numbers is fcnl.org (Quaker web site)

Ozark's picture

EWMI,

Again, I would have to quote a friend who has spent some time in Iraq since the war. He noticed on TV that during the bombing raids, life went on pretty much as usual in Baghdad. The streets did not empty. The stores did not close. While over there, he asked a fellow whose shop was next to a building that was an obvious target, (and indeed was bombed) why this was so. The fellow said he never closed his shop or even worried about it. He was that confident in the accuracy of American bombing. This accuracy did not always hold up. However, in this day of smart bombs, to say that 100,000 civilians were killed in the air raids is absurd.

Don’t you think that if even a tenth that many were killed in the air raids, it would be all over CNN? Where are all these bodies? Don’t you find it strange that they were never produced in any way shape or form? Why would these so called scientists make such an claim with no empirical evidence? That is not very scientific.

All I am asking you to do is to think about that number. Does it really make sense?

Mr. Livingstone,

You keep avoiding what my post was about in the first place. The 100,000 number is absurd. Offer some proof. While you are at it, give some proof that life was better under Saddam that it is now. It is 50 times worse now? Prove it. If you can’t answer either of these with solid evidence, I will take that as a concession.

Oh, and I would like to see your source that says Allawi was an assassin for Saddam when in fact, he was wounded in an assassination attempt in 1978, believed to have been ordered by Saddam Hussein.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3757923.stm

chrisliv's picture

Well, Ozark,

When you say, "Perhaps the U.S. should have never supported Saddam," it sounds like you believe in punishing the poor Iraqi people twice: once with Saddam, and twice with the second US invasion and occupation.

Perhaps you don't really realize that the US-appointed interim president, Mr. Allawi, was a former assasin, who traveled around Europe and murdered outspoken Iraqi exiles for Saddam.

Allawi is a puppet who is just about to proclaim his support for the US annihilation of his own people throughout the whole city of Fallujah.

Do you consider that a good thing? Is that how Iraq is supposed to be liberated, through Death?

No, the Iraqi people are now paying 50 times what they were during the US-supported Saddam regime, or even the dozen years of harsh US-led economic sanctions after the first Gulf War, and it is getting even worse for eveyone involved, and not just the Iraqi people.

No, like in 1963, when the CIA had South Vietnemese president Ngo Dinh Diem overthrown and assasinated for supporting negotiations with the North, and after years of covert war the U.S. turned to direct military invasion, in a war that had cost tens of thousands of Vietnemese (millions), Cambodian and U.S. lives, the Iraqi people will probably not be conquered by a foreign imperial power either, how ever long, or how ever many billions of US taxpayer it devours.

Peace to you all,
C. Livingstone

chrisliv's picture

Well, Ozark,

When you say, "Perhaps the U.S. should have never supported Saddam," it sounds like you believe in punishing the poor Iraqi people twice: once with Saddam, and twice with the second US invasion and occupation.

Perhaps you don't really realize that the US-appointed interim president, Mr. Allawi, was a former assasin, who traveled around Europe and murdered outspoken Iraqi exiles for Saddam.

Allawi is a puppet who is just about to proclaim his support for the US annihilation of his own people throughout the whole city of Fallujah.

Do you consider that a good thing? Is that how Iraq is supposed to be liberated, through Death?

No, the Iraqi people are now paying 50 times what they were during the US-supported Saddam regime, or even the dozen years of harsh US-led economic sanctions after the first Gulf War, and it is getting even worse for eveyone involved, and not just the Iraqi people.

No, like in 1963, when the CIA had South Vietnemese president Ngo Dinh Diem overthrown and assasinated for supporting negotiations with the North, and after years of covert war the U.S. turned to direct military invasion, in a war that had cost tens of thousands of Vietnemese (millions), Cambodian and U.S. lives, the Iraqi people will probably not be conquered by a foreign imperial power either, how ever long, or how ever many billions of US taxpayer it devours.

Peace to you all,
C. Livingstone

chrisliv's picture

One clarification on my last post regarding Hamid Karzai.

He was also a CIA asset too, but not a Taliban government member, even though he's Pashtun also, and was offered a job by Mullah Omar. Later, in 1998, Karzai engaged in anti-Taliban activities, so the Taliban killed his well-respected father.

Here's some Karzai quotes:

"Like so many mujaheddin I believed in the Taliban when they first appeared on the scene in 1994 and they promised to end the warlordism, establish law and order and then call a Loya Jirga to decide upon who should rule Afghanistan, " Karzai said in interview with Ahmed Rashid in late September of 2001.

"I gave the Taliban $50,000 US to help run their movement and then handed over to them a large cache of weapons I had hidden away. I met Mullah Omar several times and he offered to appoint me as their envoy to the UN," Karzai said wistfully.

"The tragedy was that very soon the Taliban were taken over by Pakistan’s Interservices Intelligence (ISI) and they became a proxy for a foreign power. Then they allowed Arabs and other foreigners to set up terrorist training camps on Afghan soil and I began to organize against them," he said.

"By 1997 it was clear to most Afghans that the Taliban were unacceptable because Osama bin Laden was playing a leadership role in the movement. I warned the Americans many times, but who was listening - nobody," he added.

Peace to you all,
C. Livingstone

Ozark's picture

Mr. Livingstone,

I am not denying what you said in your last two posts. I am saying that 100,000 number is ridiculous. There is no hard evidence that it is anywhere close to being true.

chrisliv's picture

Yeah, Ozark,

Of course the exact number at any point in time cannot be known, but if you look at the article cited previously, you may conclude, as I have, that the 100,000 is a conservative statistical probability. As the conflict drags on the data will undoubtedly become easier to estimate.

But, whatever the true number is, it's bad for everybody. I mean, military units may boast that their casuality rate is one-tenth or one-hundredth that of their enemy, but the Iraqi people, like the Vietnamese, and the Palestinians are poor indigeneous people fighting wealthy foreign invaders.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=6565%20

I'll clip a few sections from the article below.

Peace to you,
C. Livingstone

"In interpreting this estimate, the researchers, like all good researchers, give an estimate of its precision. This is done by providing what are known as 95% confidence intervals. These mean that, 95% of the time, the true value is between the lower and upper limits of the confidence interval (remember, these are estimates). Given the nature of the study, the confidence intervals for this 98,000 estimate are broad, from 8,000 to 194,000. Thus, it is 95% likely that the true rate of excess deaths is between 8,000 and 198,000...

"These data help explain the large confidence intervals (mentioned above) around the mortality estimates. Most likely a major reason the confidence intervals are so large is the inclusion of the Kurdish region and the reversed pattern in Sulaymaniya. It would have been reasonable to have analyzed the data for non-Kurdish Iraq separately, which would undoubtedly have resulted in a higher estimated relative risk and confidence intervals for estimated deaths with a considerably greater lower bound (above the 8,000 reported in this paper). The fact that the authors did not do so, as well as their exclusion of Falluja from the excess deaths estimate, is a sign that they were conservative in their data analysis; that is, they did not make post hoc (knowing how they would affect the results) decisions in order to inflate the mortality estimate.

"In addition to noting that the Kurdish region is included in analyses, it is important to examine areas of the country that were not included. By excluding Falluja from the estimate of excess deaths, the authors are in fact excluding all of Anbar Governorate. Now, Anbar Governorate includes both Falluja and Ramadi, as well as some of the areas near the Syrian border where "foreign insurgents" are alleged to have entered Iraq. An examination of news accounts from Iraq, or of US casualties[22] will show that a large proportion of all fighting in Iraq occurs in Anbar, as this Governorate has been in the forefront of fighting since the first month of the occupation.[23] Thus, excluding this Governorate could easily lead to a serious underestimation of Iraqi deaths.

"It should also be noted that Najaf, scene of fierce fighting and massive US bombing in April and August 2004,[24, 25] was also not sampled (see Table 1 in the paper). Further, while the Baghdad slum known as Sadr City, a stronghold of Moqtada al-Sadr -- and site of furious fighting and US bombing for months -- was included in the sample, the area sampled there "by random chance was in an unscathed neighborhood with no reported deaths from the months of recent clashes" (p. 7). Thus, many of the areas with the most intense fighting were either excluded from key analyses (Falluja) or were not sampled (Ramadi, Najaf), or while part of a sampled area did not have their violent section sampled. This fact suggests that the mortality rate for the country as a whole may, in fact, be far higher than the authors estimate (the authors in fact state this possibility). In any case, these exclusions, combined with the inclusion of the Kurdish region with the Sulaymaniya outlier, increase the likelihood that the rate of excess deaths is NOT near the lower level of the stated confidence interval of 8,000.

"One of the surprising findings is that, of the 61 violent deaths attributed to Coalition forces in this study, only three involved actions by ground forces. The other 58 deaths were attributed to "helicopter gunships, rockets, or other forms of aerial weaponry" (p. 7). These results strongly suggest that the air war has been even more intense than is often suggested.

"On the other hand, it is possible that at least a few of these deaths may actually be due to insurgent actions. There have been a number of reports of Iraqis blaming American helicopters or missiles for attacks actually carried out by insurgents.[26-28] Thus, it is possible that not all the violent deaths attributed to Coalition actions may be due directly to those actions. Of course, one could still argue that the US and its allies, by invading Iraq on false pretenses and continuing a long-term occupation of the country, bear primary moral responsibility for deaths occurring as a consequence. Nonetheless, one should exercise some caution in attributing all these deaths to Coalition actions. It should, however, also be remembered that even official statistics from the Iraqi Ministry of Health (before the US-installed government ordered them to stop releasing statistics on Iraqi casualties[29]) document that the majority of reported casualties are due to Coalition actions, rather than those of the insurgents.[30]

Conclusion

"This study is an extremely well-conducted and analyzed piece of research. Like most high-quality research, it has potential limitations and the paper's Discussion section details possible interferences with the accuracy of the results. The authors argue convincingly that none of these limitations invalidate their basic findings of high excess deaths following the invasion and occupation of Iraq. In fact, they argue, based on arguments somewhat different from those I present here, that the real number of excess deaths may be even higher than their 98,000 estimate..."

 

Ozark's picture

Mr. Livingstone,
I have had about enough of this argument. As far as I can see you have nothing but conjecture and hearsay. And that is all I am going to say.

However, I do have one question for you. I have noticed on this site that you knock everything from Bush to 403(b) organizations. In your opinion, is there any good happening anywhere in the world? What exactly are you FOR?

Btw, wasn’t this story about having blogs on Planet Preterist? LOL!

chrisliv's picture

Well,

There was no story. This was an announcement about a proposed Blog here. We're pretty much blogging ahead of schedule, right here. Get it?

Sure, I think every Christian should seek to dispel lies that the governments of Men pass-off as necessary or good. I mean, isn't it a rudimentary New Testament teaching that the End doesn't justify the Means? Yet, this site has lots of posters who attempt to do just that.

And, yes, I am also critical of a "church" which has sold its birthright for a mess of pottage in the form of a limited-liability as a state corppration and a federally-regulated IRS 501 (c) 3 creation.

So, the Salt of the Earth stings sometimes. If people weren't in so much denial about reality then we could spend more time on the beauty of Life, service to God, Peace, Contribution to the well-being of our Neighbors, etc. But the rule of Satan has sown a lot of discord among humanity lately, and it will probably have to run its full-course before Humanity or even churchgoers learn something.

What I am for is: the Body of Christ following the instructions of Jesus Christ as Lord in His Kingdom on this Earth right now, which includes Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction and Citizenship.

The Body of Christ is Separate from the Body of the State.

So, do you think Christ is pleased with the atrocities that He sees happening around the globe today, being committed with massive amounts of military hardware produced by or being used by personnel who make up the World's only Super-Power which is led by a "born-again" Christian?

Peace to you all,
C. Livingstone

Virgil's picture

I am starting to get tired of your repetitive negative message too - get your act together or I'll have to kick you off the website...

Ozark's picture

Oh my, did I say 403 (b)? That is a retirement thing. You would think after being the president of a non-profit corporation for over 20 years, I could get that right. So, you see, you and I probably disagree on a good many things, but at least we can agree that the kingdom of God is here. I think that is more than enough.

chrisliv's picture

OK,

We'll end on that happy note while I'm still a valid poster. And I noticed some of your comments regarding the Conscience Pt II article; they seemed very mature and well-balanced.

Peace to you,
C. Livingstone

leslie's picture

Religion and Politics don't mix, do they? It is OK for 'you' to talk about 'my' religious and political beliefs, but when 'I/we' talk about 'your/their' beliefs', it's over the line. Religion is an open topic to be 'debated'here, and Politics should be too. We talk about Israels politics. They go hand in hand, one does influance the other. Don't get mad when 'things' are pointed out. Facts are facts and they can be minipulated to to match up any viewpoint (almost)that 'you' want.This web site is for Preterist dialog. President Bush was always the better choice and I am glad that he is there in the White House, new Judges Will be brought forth this term. Now, we as Preterists need to get back to work and bring forth Preterist views to change the American Political views. Politics and Religion Do go hand in hand, don't they. Leslie

Brother Les

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