You are hereMarriage & the Post-Parousia Church

Marriage & the Post-Parousia Church


By Virgil - Posted on 11 August 2004

Stop & think a moment, name one instance of a marriage ceremony in the Bible or more specifically the New Testament. No doubt you may have first thought of the “Wedding at Cana” (John 2:1-2) then perhaps a passing reference to Solomon’s wedding in the Song of Solomon (Song of Sol 3:11). But no where do we see an official officiating at a marriage. Why is this important? We shall discuss it.As I have been advocating that the post-parousia Church is one that no longer has Apostles, no longer has prophets, no longer has elders/pastors (except that perhaps we all have become such as priests & kings) I was asked a very curious question, by my mother-in-law nonetheless. The question was:



“Well, then who would marry people?”


I paused. What an interesting question. It reminded me of the posed futurists’ question: “If Jesus is here then why can’t I see Him?” How would I respond?



So, I went back to the Bible, and you know I was hard pressed to find an official ever officiating a wedding. Further, I looked at Martin Luther, one of the “founders” of the Protestants and he went so far as to say:



"Marriage is a civic matter. It is really not, together with all its circumstances, the business of the church." It is so only when a matter of conscience is involved.
("What Luther Says" CPH 1959, Vol. II, page 885)



You see, marriage was considered one of the seven “sacraments” under the Roman Catholic system. Luther recognized only two sacraments (or ordinances) – Communion & Baptism. (Sacraments are supposed to be means of grace according to the Roman Catholics, Luthers, & Presbyterians)



Suddenly my mother-in-law’s question wasn’t so difficult. I had to praise God! There is nothing worse than being stumped by your mother-in-law.



Now, take note that the issue isn’t about whether there is such a thing as “marriage” but whether it is a matter that must be entered via the direction of a “pastor/priest”.



There should be no reason to make a case of this but it should be obvious to even the casual Bible student that marriage in the Bible was a pre-arranged matter or better a “contractual” matter as we see with Jacob & his uncle Laban for Laban’s daughters (Gen 29:25-27). It was almost always a matter where the Father “gave” his daughters in marriage. (Ex 2:21, De 22:16, 1 Sam 18:17-19, 1 Cor 7;38) It may be worthy to consider where the practice of a “dowry” came from and the concept of a “bride price”. (Gen 34:12, Ex 22:16-17, 1 Sam 18:25)



An official is nowhere seen in the matter. So, from where did the idea come that it required an official to “authenticate” a marriage?



First, we go back as far as we can to a typical Jewish wedding wherein we find the ketubah or marriage contract. The ketubah was originally simply a contract that the groom had written up outlining his obligations to the bride (the bride did not take a vow because her duties to her Groom were understood by all). Many modern Jewish weddings still have ketubah’s which are either signed in a private ceremony with the groom & bride or read aloud by the rabbi at a public ceremony.



Indeed, I could not find an instance of the very first “minister” led wedding but only this quote:



“Although the Church realized from the first the complete sacramentality of Christian marriage, yet for a time there was some uncertainty as to what in the marriage contract is the real essence of the sacrament; as to its matter and form, and its minister. From the earliest times this fundamental proposition has been upheld: Matrimonium facit consensus, i.e. Marriage is contracted through the mutual, expressed consent. Therein is contained implicitly the doctrine that the persons contracting marriage are themselves the agents or ministers of the sacrament. However, it has been likewise emphasized that marriage must be contracted with the blessing of the priest and the approbation of the Church, for otherwise it would be a source not of Divine grace, but of malediction. Hence it might easily be inferred that the sacerdotal blessing is the grace-giving element, or form of the sacrament, and that the priest is the minister. But this is a false conclusion. The first theologian to designate clearly and distinctly the priest as the minister of the Sacrament and his blessing as the sacramental form was apparently Melchior Canus (d. 1560). In his well-known work, "De locis theologicis", VIII, v, he sets forth the following propositions:


• It is, indeed, a common opinion of the schools, but not their certain and settled doctrine, that a marriage contracted without a priest is a true and real sacrament;

• the controversies on this point do not affect matters of faith and religion;

• it would be erroneous to state that all theologians of the Catholic school defended that opinion.


In the course of the same chapter Canus defends, as a vital matter, the opinion that without the priest and his blessing a valid marriage may take place, but a sacramental form and valid sacrament are lacking. For this opinion he appeals to Petrus de Palude (In IV Sent., dist. V, ii) and also to St. Thomas ("In IV Sent.", dist. I, i, 3: "Summa contra gentiles", IV, Ixxviii), as well as to a number of Fathers and popes of the earliest centuries, who compared a marriage contracted without sacerdotal blessing to an adulterous marriage, and therefore could not have recognized a sacrament therein.”
(New Advent – Catholic Encyclopedia)



The Roman Catholics, as I said earlier had declared “marriage” a sacrament so much so boldly that in the Council of Trent said:



"If any one shall say that matrimony is not truly and properly one of the Seven Sacraments of the Evangelical Law, instituted by Christ our Lord, but was invented in the Church by men, and does not confer grace, let him be anathema."
(canon i, Sess. XXIV)



Luther was not the only Reformer guilty of this "anathema" but also Calvin who said:



"Lastly, there is matrimony, which all admit was instituted by God, though no one before the time of Gregory regarded it as a sacrament. What man in his sober senses could so regard it? God's ordinance is good and holy; so also are agriculture, architecture, shoemaking, hair-cutting legitimate ordinances of God, but they are not sacraments".
(Institutes, IV, xix, 34)



Ultimately, we are saying (apparently along with Luther & other Reformers) that marriage, although given from God is not administered by the Church. There is no precedent (or to use a phrase many like to use regulative principle) that governs marriage except that it is a contract between a man and woman before God and does not require the blessing of a pastor or priest.



But we do stand firm that a “marriage” is only between one man and one woman as Jesus so clarified – (Mt 19:4-5)



We give this article as more proof that the concept of Protestant “pastors” are merely a Reformation stop-gap to the critical problem of doing away with Apostolic & elder succession and replacing them with an even more unbiblical concept of “called pastor”.



We strongly affirm once again that Christ is the cornerstone, the Apostles are the foundation, the elders (as were always appointed by Apostles and never elected) were the “shepherds” watching over the infant Church until She came into Unity by way of the ultimate destruction of the divisive concept of the exclusive Jewish polity and all that went with that system, and with the unifying and consummating effect of the accepted canon; especially the New Testament as the revelation of all the shadows and types of the Old for which the infant Church relied upon Apostles and shepherds until the completion of that canon. But just as we are now completely (especially as preterists understand) in the presence of Christ, we no longer require an elder/shepherd to point us to Christ saying “Look! There is the Lord!” for as Christians with regenerated hearts and receivers of the complete revelation we no longer need our neighbor to teach us to “Know the Lord” (Heb 8:11)



We now declare that we indeed are all kings and priests and are no longer bound by popes or invented “called pastors” but have each become ministers of the Light.


Roderick

andrethethinker's picture

If the legal marriage licence is a contractual agreement with the State (and not a union between the married couple and God as we who were married in church were led to believe) what then is the married couple's obligation to the State? And how does the State view the married party in relation to itself?

Andre

Roderick's picture

Hi there, Several people asked questions about the State's involvement in marriage. I know I quoted Luther who said marriage was a "civil" matter but I never meant to imply I also thought so, but merely I was trying to show how some of the Reformers did not regard marriage as something administered by the Church. For certain, marriage (in the sense of being acceptable before God) is between one man and one woman as I stated in the article and pointing to Christ's own words on the matter in Mt 19:4-6

It is indeed "reckless" to think that a marriage is only authenic if recognized by a State. For in America we shall see the days when the State recognizes a marriage between a man and man and a woman and a woman as authenic -- which it never can be in the eyes of God.

A marriage license by the State is simply a recognization by the State and authenicates nothing. Just in the same manner that a so-called "State Authorized Church" does not make it a Church. -- Ultimately, a State recognizing or not recognizing a marriage is irrelevant to the fact.

scargy's picture

Rod,
It's been interesting brother..My question is who gives the divorce papers? Since we don't have pastors or elders.Or is the states blessing all we need?

Roderick's picture

Interesting transition into divorce. I know this will sound too idealistic but these words don't come from me anyhow so they are not my ideas. I quote:

"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. -- Jesus Christ from Mt 5:31-32

Couple that with these verses:

"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." -- Jesus Christ from Mt 19:4-6

"But but but" someone might say, "In the real world we have to be more practical" -- They'll need to take that up with Jesus Christ. Also keep in mind that just as the State's authentication of your marriage has no bearing of whether it is a marriage before God, so also the State's authentication of a "divorce" really has no bearing on whether it is a divorce before God.

Another issue that has not yet been raised here is how as preterists we say The Resurrection has happened yet how does that impact these verses?

Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. But about the resurrection of the dead--have you not read what God said to you, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching. -- Jesus Christ from Mt 22:29-33

I've posed this question else where and one response was that these verses aren't addressing living people but dead -- but doesn't the text itself negate such a conclusion? (He is not the God of the dead but of the living)
For even the so-called physically dead are living to God. But just in case the point isn't made let us look at another verse:

Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection. -- Jesus Christ from Luke 20:34-36

Isn't it telling that Jesus corrected Martha about her concept of the Resurrection as merely a future event?

Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

As Christians in the 21st century do WE believe this? As Preterists who are declaring the presence of Christ do WE believe this?
We certainly don't act like it sometimes. (I'm not directing this at you scargy btw, nor anyone in particular)

Just imagine the discussions we could have about the Bible and the implications of Christ's victory -- but instead we are bogged down with people getting upset that our form of "fellowship" isn't up to their ideas. People become enraged that we dare look at the existence of Moses' Seat in a different (post-parousia) perspective. Let's get beyond this people so we can have fellowship with one another as brothers and sisters and not as pastors and laymen. Is this really such an offense concept? I can't believe I must even defend such a simple concept.

In Christ, the Chief Shepherd who HAS appeared & is ever present -- (1 Pet 5:4)
Roderick

Barry's picture

Roderick
Concider the following concept and see if there is anything that might make some sence in these matters. Really, I'm not trying to "prove" anything only putting it forward to spark your possible interest.

What the law did is validate ownership within the realm of human potential. Even from Adam I might add.
It put performance into our hands to make the ultimate point that we really needed to live in God's potential. For with men nothing is possible, but with God all things are possible.

This put things, and relationships within the realm of human potential before God.
With the preaching of the kingdom of God being at hand repentance was in order.
John the baptist told them to repent (change their minds about human potential).
Do not think to say within yourself that you have Abraham as your Father!
They were told to repent and believe (Mark 1:15).
They could not believe because they could not change their minds about human potential (Matt. 21:32)

This being the case in the transition of the ages 1 Cor. 7:29 comes into play. Also see 1 Tim. 6:17.
The point is not that the relationship would pass away. The point is that the ownership would. Now God fills all things.
Just a thought:
blessings Barry

we are all in this together

amie's picture

"The point is not that the relationship would pass away. The point is that the ownership would."

Eeggzactly Barry!

When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at, change.

[url=www.bugsinheaven.com]www.bugsinheaven.com[/url]

spiderich's picture

You know Roderick, your article addresses concerns that I have had lately. In fact, I was considering asking you privately about this very thing. :)

As for the State's involvement with marriage, perhaps we should consider that the contract is between the couple themselves, and not with the State. The State's role, then, would be simply to enforce the contract, or more specifically, act as an adjudicator during disputes when the couple has exhausted other options of conflict resolution.
This would allow the couple to decide for themselves (with obvious input from family and friends) what constituted their marriage based on their own beliefs.

My two cents,
Richard G.

Jer's picture

Thank you for introducing the contract element into the discourse, which reminded me of the "Battle of Nebraska":

In 1984, the State of Nebraska moved to shut down a school that was part of a church campus, because the teachers were not licensed by the State. That was the first domino that fell, and it led to the marriage license issue.

At trial, the revelation came that under Nebraska law, for any married couple who had been granted a State marriage license, any child the couple procreate is a ward of the State.

That led not only to married couples revoking their marriage licenses but also to churches, nationwide, dissolving their 501(c)(3) religious corporations.

Ironically, one of the leaders of this -- what became known as the "unregistered church" movement, Greg Dixon, did not dissolve his 501(c)(3) but simply ceased to correspond with the taxing agencies -- which led ultimately to the seizure of Dixon's church property, in Indianapolis, a year or so ago.

But with regard to the marriage license and children being wards of the State, that language was (or is) in the fine print, of the marriage license (adhesion) contract. So maybe there is more to the marriage license than the State's merely recognizing a marriage.

Alan Navarre

Roderick's picture

Alan,

I live just a few miles south of Indianapolis. I grew up in Indianapolis. I've attended the "The Baptist Temple" -- Greg Dixon's church twice BEFORE it was shut down by the government. Todd Dennis of PreteristArchive was also a member of that congregation. We have not even begun to address the issue of State Incorp. Churches (I'm certain chrisv is chomping at the bit for this discussion). This will be an interesting discussion.

Thanks for bringing it up
Roderick

JL's picture

Alan,

I can't find anything in either California or Nebraska law that provides that "any child the couple procreate is a ward of the State." On the contrary, the parents always have "joint physical custody" and "joint legal custody" up until a court decides otherwise.

So does Nebraska really have such a law or is it some bizarre legal claim that the state made hoping to justify their illegal intrusion?

JL

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

Sam's picture

JL,

Thank you for your reply and for looking into this. First, maybe Roderick can help you get in touch with Dixon's group to see if they have any info (see Roderick's reply on Thursday, August 12 @ 17:03:20 PDT).

I learned of this at least 12 years ago, and I don't recall all the details. I do remember that Dixon or maybe Sileven were providing a package that included all the info on marriage licenses and instructions on how to revoke them. So I think they researched it thoroughly and were on point.

See http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=199&printable=1 (if on accessing this web page a print window pops up you can cancel it and see the article [and still print it subsequently]).

Maybe after the Battle of Nebraska, that State and others amended their marriage certificate contracts(?). Please let us know what you find out.

Alan Navarre

JL's picture

Alan,

Did the State actually produce all these marriage licenses in court as evidence? Or did they just assume these people were all married in Nebraska and make this wild claim hoping a judge would buy it?

JL

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

Malachi's picture

Thank you for your article. I would appreciate your invoking Biblical passages to address the position for members of the Kingdom of God with regard to secular governments' marriage certificates.

To wit, if members of the Kingdom of God had in the past participated in the secular government process of applying for and receiving a marriage certificate, does that instrument cause any kind of interference between the married couple and God? Or if God joined them together, does it matter, spiritually, if that instrument is operative?

I have heard of such married couples revoking their government marriage certificates.

Thanks again.

Alan Navarre

Malachi's picture

Marriage is not a "sacrament" of the church, but it is not a mere civil contract either. God instituted marriage, not individuals or the state. Marriage is a moral estate, involving the procreation of children, the stability of society, its morals, fundamental teachings, etc. Moreover, God is made a party to marriage by both the laws he has instituted regarding it and the vows of the parties. Because, violation of the marriage bed by adultery or divorce, and because the Bible legislates on issues of sexual morality and the sanctity of marriage and the family unit, marriage will never be out of the realm of the church's legitimate interest and involvment. It is wrong, almost reckless, to speak of marriage as merely a civil contract.

Sam's picture

Roderick,

Thank you for once again enlightening us with your brilliant analysis. I will fire the elders today and dissolve our congregational affairs. NOT

gave good day

samuel frost

saint's picture

Sam, can you really do that?

Seriously though, I for one would like to see your take on this, and what others have to say. Not so much whether this is proof that pastors are not needed, but I suspect others here have some interesting insights on marriage in the church.
I don't think it really took brilliance for Roderick to come up with this insight, but it is worthy of discussion (the marriage issue - not Roderick's brilliance).
I know it's difficult in the flesh, but I'm pleading to all that this remains civil enough on both sides so that constuctive debate can continue for those interested.

Sam's picture

Saint,

I am one of the most passive persons I know. You guys take this stuff too seriously. Part of the problem with writing is that you cannot see the smile on my face. Fact is, you can see my articles in the archives on this issue. I am not writing any more in "debate" with Roderick. There is no real point to it. He knows what I think (at least I hope he does), and I know what he thinks and I completely disagree with him. I am, however, continuing to post my series on Biblical Elders (see article Part 1 in archives here). In these articles I am not interacting with Roderick. In my mind, there is nothing there to interact with.

Samuel Frost

Barry's picture

I liked the move “Kung Pow”. I’m not that serious really!
I will continue to read your goodies bro.

Blessings

we are all in this together

Ed's picture

Sam,
I am curious about something, what your thoughts are. If a preterist lives in an area where there is no preterist church, should he go to a futurist church? And then, if he does, and gets in trouble for being a preterist, and is asked to leave, where then should he go? Must he go anywhere, in your opinion? Now, I am asking this with one presupposition, this is a small rural community where there is only one church (I know that's hard to conceptualize you living in Tampa and all, but in some parts of the country, like Michigan, there are many rural areas that only have one or two churches).

And before you think that I am "setting a trap" for you, I want you to know that I am going to a church myself. The "pastor" knows virtually nothing of preterism, but their statement of faith does not require a futurist belief, and so I have no problem going there. I am not "anti-church". I just want to see where your thoughts go on this matter. How important is going to "church" IYO?

ed

ed

Papa is especially fond of us

scargy's picture

Ed,
Good question.I am wondering if you have asked your pastor at the church you go to that question and also your friend Rod? And what were thier answers?Thank you.
JOhn

Ed's picture

I have not asked the pastor. I have discussed this with Rod, and he agrees that one does not need to be a part of a "church" to be saved.

John, please realize that both Rod and I attended churches in a denomination that taught that if you missed too many services, you could be "disciplined" by the elders. If you were working a non-mercy job (e.g., restaurant help) on "the Sabbath", you could be disciplined by the elders. If you questioned something in the Westminster Confession of Faith, you could be brought before the elders and possibly excommunicated, depending on the severity of the disagreement. The list goes on. Can you perhaps see why Rod and I are cautious when handing over the presupposition to the "pro-church" crowd (please read my comments to Sam before anyone launches an attack on me for that comment)?

ed

Papa is especially fond of us

Roderick's picture

Although abuse does happen when people think they sit in Moses' Seat (Mt 23:1-3) today -- that is not what drives this. What drives this is not resentment but truth. There is just no way these people can make the case for post-parousia elders. Look, even Sam's latest attempt "Preterist Ecclesiology 101, Part II" is nothing but the same old futurist case that there is a tradition of people who occupy Moses' Seat. That entire tradition was done away with in the age that passed away. Now, abuses of power will continue because there will always be people who will relinquish the freedom Christ has brought and put themselves back under a false seat of Moses -- namely the unbiblical Protestant concept of the called pastor.

I will write more about this in the future. Thanks for all the encouragement from everyone. It gets tiring at times.

Roderick

scargy's picture

please read my comments to Sam before anyone launches an attack on me for that comment)?

Ed,
I hope you didn't think my question was an attack.It was not.As a former Catholic i share yours and Rods concern.
John

Sam's picture

Ed,

Thanks for the question and demeanor. "Going to church" means "fellowshipping with other believers in the Lord Jesus Christ." I believe that "fellowship" is the most important thing that a Christian can do. I believe that God has set up general principles that, if followed, allow for fellowship to grow at very intimate levels. This means that we have to excercise the fruits of the Spirit with "one another." The method of "going to church" means that you have to submit to others who do not agree with you and learn to love those who are, in your mind, unlovable. This causes us to move "outside ourselves" and to follow Paul who said that we must "consider others better than ourselves." Easier said than done, of course.

Now, as to your very real situation, I encourage you to maintain fellowship with where you are. If they do not "kick you out" then great! Some Preterists are not so fortunate. I practice what I preach, and before I accepted the call to pastor in Tampa, I was a member of a church and left them in "good standing." I served among them and helped out in any way I could. I submitted to the Eldership and they spoke very intimately in my life and to my family. I listened to them because, regardless of their errors (and we all have error), God, by providence, had placed them where they were. I showed them respect and I honored them, following Paul in I Thess 5.12. I spoke kindly of them, and I allowed them to rebuke me on occassion (when I needed it the most). I grew while serving in that place, and I will always carry them with me. But, if you do not have any place whatsoever, and God, by providence, has left you in such a place, then you have some options: stay at home and do nothing; Locate another assembly closer to your area; find a Bible Study group; possibly begin a Bible Study group yourself (our congregation was first a small Bible Study cell, but the teaching by Mike Grace was so good, that many others started coming - making it possible to build and support a full-fledged ministry). In any of these situations, Ed, the Lord Jesus Christ is with you...but he is also with other MEMBERS of His Body as well....that is why fellowship is important...in fellowshipping with one another, we are fellowshipping with Christ. I hope that that helps answer your question.

Pastor Samuel Frost

chrisliv's picture

"Thanks for the question and demeanor. "Going to church" means "fellowshipping with other believers in the Lord Jesus Christ."

Oh, come on! I can do that at bowling league. Church is much more than 'fellowshipping.'

Ed's picture

No Sam, it doesn't answer my question. I am not having a problem in my fellowship. I only used that to show you that I wasn't one of those "wackos" (sic) out there as your congregant chose to call my friend, Rod.

My question was: IF a preterist cannot find a fellowship which allows him to attend due to his preterism (assuming that he has been sweetness and light, and not obnoxious as some here), IS he still within God's mercy if he choses to "attend church"?

I know all the stuff about the benefits of fellowship. Not even Rod denies that. I want to know if a man is outside of the kingdom if he doesn't have a koinonia to attend?

ed

Papa is especially fond of us

Roderick's picture

Actually Ed, Sam answered your question early on but wants to make more of the definition than need be. Allow me to quote Sam:

"Going to church" means "fellowshipping with other believers in the Lord Jesus Christ."

Amen Sam!!! Now why have you added all this other stuff to that simple answer. Why do you continue to become so upset when I declare the very same thing? You seem to contradict yourself when you add all the other specifically first century transitional modes to this very simple declaration.

So, if Sam will allow me to agree with him on this matter I will also say to Ed, that he would be attending Church simply by having fellowship with other believers in Christ -- if that entails a "house church" so be it. If it entails a rented building so be it. If it entails getting together with a few people down at the local cafe so be it. Let us not make a religion out of a relationship. Ed, I'm certain you are "attending" church now. I've spoken with you on the phone and you have expressed how you desire fellowship with other believers in Christ and certainly no Christian can be without that fellowship for long. That is the reason many of us here in this "virtural" fellowship desire to meet in person and enrich that fellowship.
I hope that has clarified the point?
Roderick

Sam's picture

Roderick,

And, as far as "fellowship" is concerned, John McPherson is more consistent than you are. He has NO fellowship, nor does he make any effort to locate one. Fellowship was a "first century" model thing. He consistently does away with all of it. Why do you keep some of it around? Your argument fails to satisyf this basic question. Why is fellowship necessary at all? Why is "getting together" necessary at all? If I am a priest unto myself, and Christ is my Shepherd and Teacher, then why do I need you? They needed each other in the FIRST century, but after the Second Coming, THAT is no longer NECESSARY. Thus, I prefer John's answer to yours, because yours still defines "fellowship." What FIRST CENTURY definition of "fellowship" do you use? In what verse? Koinonia was for THEM, but is no longer FOR US. It is your failure to answer this question, which I have TRIED and TRIED to get you to answer. Perhaps now, you will. Oh, and try not to use and FIRST CENTURY definitions of koinonia, either.

Samuel

Ed's picture

Whoa Nellie.....

Sam, please let's you and I finish this conversation. Let me tell you what I believe, and see if I'm okie-dokie IYO (and I'm not saying this as a slam, this is the way buddies talk, ok?).

Ekklesia meant "called out". I believe that the ekklesia was called out from the Old Covenant. When we define "church" as the ekklesia, I have a problem with that. What we have today, not obligatorily, but charitably, is koinonia, i.e. fellowship. And, since the word church does not necessarily signify ekklesia, I use it to describe fellowship, koinonia, synagoguing, whatever.

Now, to my next point - I believe elders can exist today. I believe that they are still folks who lead. The problem that I have had (and I am sure I would not have it if you were my elder, just as I don't with the elders I have at First Congregational) is that some elders wish to become "mini-popes". You see, from the tradition that Rod and I both came from, we had this problem. That is why Rod is so adamant. His experience with elders has always been negative. The same can be said for me up until I started attending Crosswinds in Canton MI. The elders there were humble servants, who never demanded conformity. They taught what they thought God was saying in the text, but NEVER demanded that we sign a statement affirming such. They never shut us down for discussing other possibilities (in fact, an elder that I went to small group with was quite interested in my preterist leanings).

I cannot speak for Rod. But I have spoken to him. I think you have too. I think we can both say that he is a good man. You are a good man. Well respected. You've earned that, through the Spirit working through you - not because you are a "pastor", but because you are a BELIEVER. I know that you agree with me (although in your humility, I'm sure you won't "toot your own horn").

My issue has always been that today's church looks nothing like the first century model. Most of you are arguing whether that model should have progressed past AD70. I'm arguing that it shouldn't have, because it didn't exist prior to AD70 either. Elders were always servants, big brothers. They were helpers, not commanders.

I know that what I am saying, for the most part, you agree with. So does Rod, for the most part. If John believes something different, that's for John to argue. Too often, we find ourselves arguing with the wrong guy. Didn't you feel strange when Rod argued with you about Parker's apostolic succession beliefs? You're Presbyterian. You don't believe in apostolic succession. I know that. Rod knows that.

Let's work together to find a working model, without the trappings of "modern church", that can take preterism past the elementary teachings. Home church is a good start. I go to a building for my fellowship. I don't like it, because I would rather the money be spent elsewise, but you know what? That building has been around for about 40 years or more. It's paid for. Should we get rid of it, or find a use to grow God's kingdom? I think we both know the right answer.

The problem comes in when we make a decision, and then make it dogma. It's wrong when I do it. It's wrong when Rod does it. It's wrong when you do it. Etc., etc. I'm not saying that to slam you Sam. I love you, and I hope to meet you at one of these preterist conferences, if I can ever make it to one. I'm saying it to try to get us past this tit-for-tat bickering about "church polity".

I'm sorry I went long. I do hope my words are given in the right spirit, and received as such.

blessings,

ed

ed

Papa is especially fond of us

Sam's picture

Ed,

By "outside the kingdom" do you mean a loss of salvation if you do not attend church? Do I really need to answer that? If you have faith in Christ you are saved. Period. Nothing can take that away, ever.

Samuel

Barry's picture

It is possible to discuss these issues in a loving and productive way even when you are personally convinced that the other party is nuts.
And if we cannot find a way to do it then who can?

Barry

we are all in this together

KingNeb's picture

What the crack?

Mother in-law asks, ““Well, then who would marry people?”

Roderick studies and finds that ‘elders’ were never sanctioned to do it in the first place. Ok….fine…..

But then, “We give this article as more proof……….”

What?!? How in the world does that logically follow?

“hey, I’m going to prove Jesus doesn’t exist today”

“but, if Jesus does not exist today, then who’s going to help me get in the sack with this girl I like?”

“hmmmm……. Let’s look in to this more….awwww, but wait…..Jesus never said He would help you do that….SEE! ...Jesus does not exist…..”

What a ridiculous argument.

thereignofchrist.com

KingNeb's picture

now Roderick,

I simply stated that your view is illogical and ridiculous and you are the one bringing up Sam Frost which has absolutely nothing to do with it.....

explain to me how one can reason that just because elders are not supposed to marry people, they don't exist?

If you say 'A' does not exist. And a person comes along and says "yeah, but if 'A' does not exist, who is going to to 'B'?" and you respond, "well 'A' was never supposed to do 'B'."
How in the name of tim lahaye does it follow; "Therefore, 'A' doesn't exist' ?!?

What in the world is that?

thereignofchrist.com

Roderick's picture

Brother, I'm sorry you are becoming so upset over this. It really need not be such an offensive thing that we can have fellowship in the post-parousia without all the specifically first-century officials that were guiding the infant Church through the Tribulation -- but I will restate what I stated earlier in response to your question (since I did answer you the first time):
This study "follows" because another reason (at least in my mother-in-law's mind) to have pastors is because we need them to perform marriages. Thus it IS MORE PROOF that we don't need them today in the post-parousia.

It is more proof, not the thing I'm building the case on. For at least my mother-in-law who is very practical about these things, Clergy are for carrying out certain functions, like marrying people, presiding over funnerals and such. This was her hang up, she had no trouble about the general premise that elders were APPOINTED by apostles and thus unless we have some sort of apostolic or elder succession, it is impossible to duplicate the first-century officials today.

As for making it known that you attend the same congregation as Sam Frost simply adds context to your outrage so people can understand why you are so upset. It was not meant derogatory. You and I have spoken before and I told you clearly that if you want to fellowship at a congregation that is still trying to duplicate a transitional first-century model, by all means go right ahead. You are still a brother to me. I will not call you wacko or a "rebel against God and God's people" or any such labels. Lastly, as for me referring to people who go to church for the weekly milk-bottle fill (I think I said), again I'm sorry you took offense at that. I wasn't even really talking about preterists so much, but evenso you & I & everyone else knows there are probably more of those type of people than people who dig in and read their Bible without the constant oversight of whoever is the "leader" of their congregation.

I hope you and I can reconcile and not be adverse to one another?

You'll know them by their love for one another --
Your brother
Roderick

Roderick's picture

KingNeb, please state that you are a member of Sam Frost's church so people will understand your hostility and misrepresentations.

This study "follows" because another reason (at least in my mother-in-law's mind) to have pastors is because we need them to perform marriages. Thus it IS MORE PROOF that we don't need them today in the post-parousia -- thank you for your (and Mr. Frost's) continued loving interaction, I'm sure it is helpful to us all.

In Christ
Roderick

KingNeb's picture

My "hostility and misrepresentations"?

What did i misrepresent? That was the most ridiculous thing i have ever read. How in the world does your argument follow logically? I don't care if you told your mother that elders can't do hand stands anymore - What does that have to do with proving they exist or not? - NOTHING!

As far as hostility goes, that has nothing to do with Sam. I am not the one in previous posts stating that men like me go to 'preterist' churches because they sit around in front of the boob tube all week and look to the weekly service for their 'fix' because they don't study.

That's why I'm hostile. Don't try to sidetrack that the real issue here: your logic stinks and I do know how to read.

thereignofchrist.com

Virgil's picture

Guys - let's keep the attacks down or I'll turn comments off.

- virgil

KingNeb's picture

Virgil,

i'm sorry. I rarely post here as it is. This just really frustrates me. i spend hours upon hours with non-preterists having to go back and explain that when I say 'im a preterist', I am not in line with some one they read on Planet Preterist who makes some illogical argument that because elders don't marry people, they don't exist. That's illogical. And it has me wasting hours of time trying to convince somebody that THAT is not Preterism.

There is a reason Keith mathison links us up with wackos like Noyes.....we are not far from it.

Lines need to be drawn if we hope to make any progress here.

thereignofchrist.com

Ed's picture

Oh.....so if we don't agree with you, we're wackos?

As far as people coming to read stuff on Planet Preterist, and finding weird ideas, or disagreement. Do they not have disagreements within their churches? Do they consider other denominations to be fellow Christians? Or are they like you, where everyone must agree with you or they deny Jesus (I am infering this from your original comment - which I felt was disgusting). If you are a member of Sam's congregation, he should be ashamed.

You can ban me Virgil for that last comment. I'm sick of these type comments. I may argue, but I have NEVER considered someone who disagrees with me to be less than my brother in Christ.

ed

Papa is especially fond of us

KingNeb's picture

"but I have NEVER considered someone who disagrees with me to be less than my brother in Christ."

dude, what are you talking about? I will personally mail you 50 dollars if you can find where I said any thing of this sort.

Am i applying Roderick is a wacko - yes. I never said anything about him being less of a christian. furthermore, according to him, people typically go to church on sunday because they are not in the Word mon-fri. HE SAID THAT....NOT ME! i'll find the quote for you if you want it.

THAT"S WACK. Call it wrong...call it stupid...call it whatever you want...for him to make some wack comment about people he doesn't even know...and then on top of that turns around and posts a so-called argument that just because elders were never suppose to marry people implies they aren't need for ANYTHING today....well...that is a wacko argument.

And notice, Roderick never address the question but has to bring up my connections with Sam Frost - who cares! What does Sam Frost have to do with his wacky argument?

Would you like to take a shot at it and explain it to me?

thereignofchrist.com

Ed's picture

Number one, I'm not going to take a crack at it, because I don't necessarily agree with Rod on everything he says. I believe he raises many valid points, ones that I agree with, but that doesn't mean that I agree on every point. I also believe that many points he makes should logically lead to things that I believe, but he doesn't. As Sam says in a post in this thread, Rod is his own man, his words are his words.

My objection is to your comments about how people who don't agree with you are wackos (sic). And your disgusting example in your first post, which I quote below:

KingNeb wrote:
What?!? How in the world does that logically follow?

“hey, I’m going to prove Jesus doesn’t exist today”

“but, if Jesus does not exist today, then who’s going to help me get in the sack with this girl I like?”

“hmmmm……. Let’s look in to this more….awwww, but wait…..Jesus never said He would help you do that….SEE! ...Jesus does not exist…..”

Your implication that Rod's views endorse fornication and deny Jesus was uncalled for. And don't give me the garbage about "using an example". A much less volatile example could have been found. But no....you chose the one you did. And I think it is disgusting.

ed

Papa is especially fond of us

KingNeb's picture

ok, what ever. so you are a mind-reader now and can read people's motives.

I did use a silly example exactly for the purpose of showing the silliness of Roderick's logic, BUT IN NO WAY WHATSOEVER was I implying that Rod endorses fornication or denies Jesus....good grief....

You are doing exactly what Roderick is doing...making much to do about nothing and not dealing with the argument.

Sam Frost has ABOSLUTELY NOTHING whatsoever to do with Rod's weak argument and for Rod to ask me to make it known that I go to Sam's church was pointless, and appeared to me, to avoid the argument and just start trouble. And my post has absolutely nothing to do with him promoting those things....for crying out loud people...learn how to read.

thereignofchrist.com

Ed's picture

KingNeb,
It is obvious that talking to you does no good. Even though you admit that your example was a silly example, you justify yourself. You said it, people visit this site, and by your own admission, when they read comments like that, what do they think? Hmmm? What do they think?

If Rod attacked you...fine, he attacked you. Your reaction is one of a 6 year old child. "He hit me first". I'm not sure if this quote sounds familiar, but I'll try it..."do not repay evil for evil, abuse for abuse; but, on the contrary, repay with a blessing." In case you think I'm making it up, you can find it in 1 Peter 3:9. Verse 8 is good too.

blessing,

ed

ed

Papa is especially fond of us

KingNeb's picture

ed,

you're right. you win. i mean, what was i thinking? I really did have a hidden message in my illustration implying that Rod endorses fornication. You are so wise. No need for you to apologize, you saw right through me. i guess i'll never post again here, because as long as you are here, you will always be able to spot my hidden codes and truly reveal my evil character to all. rats.

thereignofchrist.com

KingNeb's picture

and Ed, with internet capabilities, we can easily go back to some old posts and cut and paste some 'names' Sam has been called as well as those ignorant 'preterist church' goers who get their sunday fix because they're too concerned with 'wordly' matters during the week.

SHALL WE REVISIT THOSE POSTS? Ed, be a 'consistent' preterist and hold EVERYONE to the standard.

thereignofchrist.com

Ed's picture

Can you show me where I called you or Sam a name, or implied that you guys were whackos? I'd love for you to cut and paste my comments.

But if you are going to regurgitate Rod's comments, then does that mean that I can regurgitate Sam's insults too?

Let me quote again 1 Pet 3:8, "do not repay evil for evil, abuse for abuse; but, on the contrary, repay with a blessing."

ed

Papa is especially fond of us

Virgil's picture

Nobody is getting banned! I am just asking you guys to watch what you are typing. If you wouldn't say something to someone face, why would you say it in a comment here? It makes everyone look bad, including the website and people affiliated with it.

Sam's picture

Ed,

As for Jason beinga member, yes he is. He has made tremedous sacrifices. But, I will not "rebuke" him for his lines here. He speaks his own mind and is his own man. He stands or falls to God and God alone. You need to "hear" the frustration and read between the lines. Elders NEVER married in the OT. This was a capacity that eventually was given to them because of the Roman Church (MARRIAGE and MARIOLOGY...see?). Marriage is a Sacrament in the Roman Church, complete with "ring" (symbol of unending devotion). Do you wear a "ring"? Are you Catholic? Marriage, in the OT, was decided by the Fathers of those wanting to be married. Often, sex bound one together, and then, as a result, they would go to the father confessing their fault. The father could bless the union, or make the man give him a price. There was no "state" union, no "clergy man," no "license" (there were "bills of divorce" though). Sex made a marriage a marriage (Paul's argument that uniting with a Prostitute makes you "one" with her is clear here). The parents either blessed it, or they did not. However, I am sure Roderick has a ring, went through a Roman Catholic ceremony of sorts in a church. None of that is "necessary" at all. I don't wear a ring (my wife does, but she like jewelry, too). Following Roderick's argument, maybe the "post-parousia" no man nor female people should outlaw the old Roman Catholic sacrament of marriage, too.

Samuel Frost

Ed's picture

Sam,
I have no idea what you are ranting about. Who said anything about Roman Catholicism? Did I?

My complaint was that KingNeb used a disgusting example in attempting to refute Rod. I find his rudeness to be unacceptable. If he wants to disagree with Rod, be my guest. I disagree with Rod in this instance. I'm allowed to do that. What I am not allowed to do is imply that Rod endorses fornication and denies Jesus, and then call him names [wacko (sic)]. KingNeb, however, felt justified in doing so.

ed

Papa is especially fond of us

Apollos's picture

'...some are pastors, some are teachers...some are county clerks...'

What 'Unity' did the church come into in the first century? Apparently, it's the unholy unity with the state. That premise is wrong, Christ's church grew quickly beyond 'home-meetings' into dedicated buildings and an organization in line with scripture. The desire for a return to home-meetings is a desire for same choas in the church that Paul encountered - as everyone went their own way.

Recent comments

Poll

Should we allow Anonymous users to comment on Planet Preterist articles?
Yes absolutely
24%
No only registered users should comment
76%
What are you talking about?
0%
Total votes: 41