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The Last Half of Daniel's 70th Week

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By Duncan - Posted on 05 November 2007

by Duncan McKenzie
Here is another excerpt from my upcoming book The Antichrist and the Second Coming. The book is done but I am still refining it. So far there has been no interest from any publishers (preterist or otherwise). As most preterist authors end up doing, I may have to publish the book myself.Here is another excerpt from my upcoming book The Antichrist and the Second Coming. The book is done but I am still refining it. So far there has been no interest from any publishers (preterist or otherwise). As most preterist authors end up doing, I may have to publish the book myself.The last half (3 ½) of Daniel’s seventieth week: Daniel 9:27.

A time (and) times and half a time (a time-period of three and a half): Daniel 7:25; 12:7; Revelation 12:14.

Forty-two months (three and a half years): Revelation 11:2; 13:5.

1260 days (forty-two months of 30-day months): Revelation 11:3; 12:6.

Three and a half days: Revelation 11:9, 11.

What these scriptures all have in common is that they refer to a time period of three and a half that was to be a time of trial and testing for God’s people just prior to the full establishment of God’s kingdom. While a single chronological sequence of all these references is not possible (and will not be attempted), these scriptures for the most part do fit into two related time periods, one literal, the other more symbolic. All of the references to the period of three and a half end with the full establishment of God’s kingdom at the Second Coming in AD 70.

 

The Literal Use of the Time of Three and a Half

The first way the time period of three and a half is used is in a literal sense, as the period of three and a half years or forty two months (March/April of AD 67- August/September of AD 70) that Titus waged war against the Jews. This was the time of the great tribulation and is the most common way that the period of three and a half is used. It is used this way in Daniel 7:25; 9:27; 12:7 and Revelation 11:2 and 13:5.

He [the little eleventh horn] shall speak pompous words against the Most High, shall persecute the saints of the Most High, and intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand for a time and times and half a time. But the court shall be seated, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and destroy it forever. Then the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions hall serve and obey Him. Daniel 7:25-27

Then he [the Messiah of v. 26] shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And [in the last half of the 70th week] on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate. Daniel 9:27

At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation…And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?” Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished. Daniel 12:1, 6-7

Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, ‘Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. Revelation 11:1-2

So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, ‘who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him? And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. Revelation 13:4-5

The literal period of three and a half was the three and a half years that the little eleventh horn/ individual beast made war against God’s people. It refers to the coming of the prince who would destroy Jerusalem and the Temple (Dan. 9:26; cf. Rev. 11:2). Titus’ three and a half year campaign against Israel would be the last half of Daniel’s 70th week and would end with the desolation and destruction of the Jewish nation (Dan. 9:27; 12:7).

 

The Symbolic Use of the Time of Three amd a Half

The second way the time period of three and a half is used is in a symbolic sense. It is used this way in Revelation 12, where it is symbolic of the time between the cross (AD 30) and the destruction of Jerusalem (AD 70).

Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. Revelation 12:6

Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. Rev. 12:13-14; cf. Dan. 12:7

The symbolic use of the period of three and a half refers to the forty year period between the cutting off of Messiah in AD 30 and the desolation of Israel in AD 70. This is shown in Revelation 12 where the new, or heavenly, Jerusalem is pictured in the form of a mother (see Is. 66:7-13). She is the new covenant mother of all believers (cf. Gal 4:21-31). Jesus is shown as the first born of this mother (Rev. 12:5); He was the first born of many brethren (Rev. 12:17; cf. Rom. 8:29). The “birth” of the male Child is not talking about Jesus physical birth but His spiritual birth as the first born from the dead (cf. Rev. 1:5; Col. 1:18). Thus the male Child after being born immediately ascends to the throne of God, the AD 30 ascension.

Revelation 12 shows Satan being cast out of heaven at the ascension of Jesus (Rev. 12:1-10; cf. John 12:31-32). The kingdom of God was established in heaven at this time but not yet on earth (Rev. 12:10-12). The new covenant mother and her children (Rev. 12:17) would need protection from Satan until the end of “a time and times and half a time” (Rev. 12:14). This would be until the AD 70 shattering of the Jewish nation (cf. Dan. 12:7). This was the time of the full establishment of the kingdom of God and was analogous to the children of Israel entering the Promised Land. Thus the period of three and a half in Revelation 12:6, 14 is symbolic of the spiritual exodus that believers were participating in in the time between AD 30 and AD 70 (cf. 1 Cor. 10:1-12; Heb. 3:7-4:11). Notice that, like the literal use of three and a half, the symbolic use of this time period also brings one to the AD 70 full establishment of God’s kingdom.

 

Daniel’s Seventy Weeks

The primary source for the meaning of the time of trial of three and a half is the seventy weeks of Daniel 9:24-27. The context of the seventy weeks (or seventy sevens) has to do with the Jews and Jerusalem (“seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city” Dan 9:24). The time period of three and a half would be the last half of the seventieth week. While this tribulation period would come upon the whole world, it would focus on the Jews, those who dwelled on the Land (cf. Rev. 3:10). In Daniel 9:26-27 Daniel’s seventieth week is given as the time during which God would establish and confirm His covenant; it is divided into two parts (3 ½ and 3 ½) in verse 27.

 

26. And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined.

27. Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate.

Daniel 9:26 and 27 parallel each other; that is, they each address the same two topics. The first part of each verse contains a reference to the killing of Messiah and the resulting end of the legitimacy of the sacrificial system

26. And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off,…

27. …in the middle of the week He shall bring and end to sacrifice and offering…

The death of Jesus brought an end to the legitimacy of the sacrificial system (cf. Matt. 27:50-51; Heb. 10:11-18); it happened after seven and sixty-two weeks, Dan. 9:25 (i.e. it happened during the seventieth week). The ultimate sacrifice of Messiah happened during the seventieth week/seven, at the end of its first half.

The second part of verses 26 and 27 contain a reference to the coming of the one who would destroy Jerusalem and the Temple; this would be the last half of Daniel’s seventieth week/seven. It was the time of the coming of the one who would make the Jewish nation desolate:

26. …and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined.

27….And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate.

It is this last half of Daniel’s seventieth week that the time period of three and a half is referencing.

Daniel 9:27 makes the division of v. 26 explicit, dividing the two events of v. 26 (the death of the Messiah and then the coming of the destroyer of the Temple) into two halves of a week or more literally a “seven.” Here is Edward J. Young’s translation of Daniel 9:27.

And he [i.e. Messiah] shall cause to prevail a covenant for the many one seven, and in the midst of the seven he shall cause sacrifice and oblation to cease, and upon the wing of abominations (is) one making desolate, and until end and that determined shall pour upon the desolate. brackets in original (1)

During the 70th week (in the middle of it) the Messiah would cause the covenant (the new covenant, which was for many, cf. Matt 26:28), to prevail. At this time, after the first half of the seventieth week, God would bring an end to the legitimacy of sacrifice. This happened in AD 30 when, after the three and a half year ministry of Jesus, God put an end to the legitimacy of the sacrificial system by the sacrifice of His Son. The Jews would offer sacrifices for another 40 years but after the sacrifice of the Lamb of God the sacrificial system of the Temple would be invalid in God’s eyes.(2) In the second half of Daniel’s 70th week would come the one who would make Israel desolate. This would confirm the new covenant, as the old covenant Temple system would totally disappear.

 

Was there to be a Seven Year Covenant Made by the Antichrist?

It should be noted that the idea promoted by dispensationalists that the Antichrist makes a seven year covenant with Israel has no scriptural support. This teaching is based on a mistaken understanding of Daniel 9:27:

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate.

The “he” in v. 27 is the Messiah (of v. 26). He would be confirming the covenant during a seven year period. This is not referring to the Antichrist establishing a seven year covenant with Israel. All subsequent scriptural references to the Antichrist that mention a time period do so in the context of a period of three and a half years, never seven (e.g. Dan. 7:25; Rev. 13:5). Other than a mistaken interpretation of Daniel 9:27, there is absolutely no scriptural support for the Antichrist making a seven year covenant with Israel.

The covenant that would be confirmed (or would prevail) during the 70th week was the new covenant. The new covenant was established in the first half of the seventieth week with Jesus’ three and a half year ministry; this culminated with His once and for all sacrifice. The kingdom of God prevailed in heaven at this time but not yet on earth (cf. Rev. 12:5-12).

The new covenant was confirmed in the second half of the seventieth week with Titus’ three and a half year “ministry;” this culminated with the destruction of the Temple. This made the observance of the old covenant impossible. The kingdom of God prevailed on earth at this time (cf. Dan. 7:19-27; Luke 19:11-27). This is an important point: The kingdom of God was fully established in heaven at the AD 30 ascension of Jesus. It was fully established on earth at his AD 70 Parousia. It was at this time that God’s kingdom was taken from the Jews and given to God’s new covenant people at AD 70 (Mat 21:33-43).

 

Is there A Gap in the Seventy Weeks?

Notice that with the literal use of the time of three and a half there is a gap between the first half and second half of the seventieth week; this gap is some 37 years (AD 30-67). While a gap does exist, it is not the thousands of years (between the sixty-ninth and seventieth week) that dispensationalists claim. Some preterists, in reaction to the huge gap proposed by dispensationalists, argue that there is no indication in the text of a gap between the first half and second half of Daniel’s week. With the aid of historical hindsight and the rest of Scripture, however, it seems clear that the first half of the seventieth week ended when Jesus was cut off in AD 30 and the second half ended when Titus made the Jewish nation desolate in AD 70. God was establishing and confirming the new covenant during this time. During the first half of the seventieth week He established the new covenant through the death of Jesus; during the second half He confirmed the new covenant by abolishing the old covenant Temple system.

What is essentially the same unseen gap between the first and second half of Daniel’s 70th week occurs in Isaiah 61:2.

The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me, because the Lord has anointed Me to preach good tidings to the poor; he has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord [fulfilled in Jesus’ ministry], and the day of vengeance of our God [fulfilled in Titus’ ministry]. Is. 61:1-2 brackets mine

On the surface there is no gap in Isaiah 61:1-2; looking at Jesus’ teaching, however, He alludes to a gap here. In Luke 4:18-19 Jesus quotes this section of Isaiah up to the last half of vs. 2. He stopped His reading at that point and left out the part that referred to “the day of vengeance of our God.”

The first half of Isaiah 61:2, “the acceptable year of the Lord” was being fulfilled in Jesus’ ministry. The last half, “the day of vengeance” would be fulfilled some forty years later in Titus’ AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jews into the nations. Luke wrote the following on this: “For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled…and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.” (Luke 21:22, 24). Daniel 9:27 and Isaiah 61:2 are referring to the same two time periods, the acceptable year of the Lord (the three and a half year ministry of the Christ) and the day of vengeance (the three and a half year “ministry” of the Antichrist).

That the second half of Daniel’s seventieth week is separated from the first half is also shown by the fact that the last half of the seventieth week keeps showing up in Scripture as the time period of three and a half right before the AD 70 Second Coming (cf. Dan. 7:21-25). This would be the time of the great tribulation; it would end with the resurrection at the time of the destruction of the Jewish nation (Dan. 12:1-7). This hardly fits AD 33, which would be the end of the seventy weeks if there was no gap between Messiah being cut off and the coming of the one who would make the Jewish nation desolate.

In addition to the above points, the purpose of the seventy weeks was related to the Jews and Jerusalem; “Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city.” It was AD 70 (not AD 33) that accomplished the destruction of Jerusalem and the shattering of the power of Daniel’s people (Dan. 12:7). Furthermore, the events that the seventy weeks were to complete (“To finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.” Dan. 9:24) were fulfilled at the Second Coming in AD 70 not in AD 33. In short, there is a small gap here; deal with it!

 

Summary

The time period of three and a half that is found in Daniel and Revelation is derived from the last half of Daniel’s seventieth week. It describes the time when, after the Christ had been cut off, that the one who would make Israel desolate would come (Dan. 9:26-27). This time period was to be a time of trial just prior to the full establishment of God’s kingdom in AD 70; it would come upon the whole world but would focus on the Jews (cf. Rev. 3:10). This is made clear in the introduction to Daniel’s seventy weeks: “Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city…” Dan. 9:24. That the Jews would be the focus of the seventy weeks is also seen in the fact that this time period would end with the shattering of the Jewish nation (Dan. 12:1-7).

There are two ways one can view the last half of Daniel’s seventieth week. The first way is more literal, as a three and a half year bookend (of March/April of AD 67 to August/September of A.D. 70) at the end of the seventieth week. The initial bookend of Daniel’s 70th week was Jesus’ three and a half year ministry (c. AD 27-30) which came at the beginning. This makes the two halves of the seventieth week into two bookends, AD 27-30 and AD 67-70, with a gap in between. This more literal use of the time of three and a half is found in Daniel 7:25 (“a time and times and half a time”); 12:7 (“a time, times and half a time”); Revelation 11:2 (“forty-two months”); and 13:5 (“forty-two months”).

The other way the last half of Daniel’s seventieth week can be seen is more symbolic, as the 40 year time period from when Messiah was cut off in AD 30 to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 (Dan. 9:26). Notice that in this symbolic use there is no gap; the last half of Daniel’s seventieth week is the time between the crucifixion and the desolation of Israel (Dan. 9:27). This symbolic use of the time of three and a half is found in Revelation 12:6 (“one thousand two hundred and sixty days”) and 12:14 (“a time and times and half a time”); this wilderness time (v. 14) symbolizes the spiritual exodus of believers in the transition period of AD 30-70 (cf. 1 Cor. 10:1-12; Heb. 3:7-4:11). Again, both the literal and symbolic uses of the time period of three and a half bring one to the same point in time, the full establishment of God’s kingdom at AD 70.

Footnotes:

1. Edward Young, A Commentary on Daniel, (Carlisle, Pennsylvania: The Banner of Truth Trust, 1972), 208.

2. After the sacrifice of Jesus, the Jewish Temple was left desolate (Matt. 23:37-38; 27:50-51). Jesus “put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself” (Heb. 9:26); after that there was “no longer an offering for sin” (see Heb. 10:5-18). Interestingly there is a Jewish tradition that gives support to the idea that the Jewish sacrificial system was invalid after the death of Jesus. Every year on the Day of Atonement a scapegoat (which symbolically carried Israel’s sin) would be driven into the wilderness. When the scapegoat had reached the wilderness (indicating that Israel’s sin was forgiven) a crimson wool thread tied to the temple would turn white. According to Jewish sources this thread never turned white during this last forty years of the second Temple. Zev Vilnay, Legends of Jerusalem, The sacred Land: vol. 1 (Philadelphia: The Jewish publication Society of America, 1973), 115-116. This story supports the idea that from the time of the death of Jesus in AD 30 to the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 Israel’s sin ceased to be atoned for by the sacrifices and offerings of the Temple.

mrfullpreterist's picture

Duncan,

I agree with your conclusion that there is a gap between the first half of the 70th week and the last half of it. This has been my view for over 8 years now.

In the first half God confirmed the blessings of the covenant. In the last half He confirmed the curses. I am totally with you on this and it has always made the most sense to me.

Rob

mrFOOLpreterist FKA as mrfullpreterist

Still searching to understand the Truth.

Duncan2's picture

Thanks for the comment Rob. One has to be careful of what I call defensive theology. In this case the fact that dispys have a (ridiculously large) gap has caused some to deny any gap. Granted a gap is not pretty but sometimes prophecy is not pretty.

In the latter part of Daniel 11 it is talking about Antiochus IV then at v. 36 it starts using language that Paul applies to the man of sin in 2 Thess. 2:4. Then in chapter 12 it talks about the resurrection. Somewhere in there, there is a gap, from the second cent BC to AD 70 (in my book I argue that the shift happens at v. 36).

Duncan

mazuur's picture

Duncan2,

I agree there is a gap there too. At one time I tried to eliminate the gap, mostly out of rejecting anything that resembled what the dispys presented, but, Max King in his book Cross and Parousia convinced my otherwise. King holds to a gap too. Very good read if you've never read his take (pages 317-341).

-Rich

-Rich

Islamaphobe's picture

Duncan,

How's your book coming? I am anxious to see the final work and am sure that I shall find much in it with which I agree. I have completed a 260-page manuscript on the prophecies of Daniel 2 that I shall probably be self-publishing before the middle of the year.

John S. Evans

Duncan2's picture

Hi John,

The book is done but still needs final editing. I am trying to figure out how to get the thing in print. It is too long (850 pages) for Print On Demand technology. No publishers knocking down the door yet. Maybe you can give me some hints on the self publishing route?

Duncan

JL's picture

Duncan,

You might talk to Mike Beidler about editing.

You need a type-setter.

You need a cover.

You need a printer.

Morris publishing is real cheap for 8 1/2 x 11 and 5 1/2 x 8 1/2 format books, but they have a 400 page limit.

Versa Press will do any size you like. They are probably your best deal for 6 x 9, the size we went with. They print a large page and cut it down. (Something like 25x37?) So there are other sizes for which there is only a little waste and they can do cheaply.

I suggest you measure the page size for every book in your house. Put your text in one WORD file. Then use Page Setup on the file menu to resize all the pages. For each standard size, note the page count.

Then ask each printer for basic prices for the sizes they can do efficiently and decide on a page size.

Then you go to the typesetter. If you skip the typesetter, you can print from WORD to a PDF file. It won't look professional, but it will look better than most professional books from the '60's.

Expect to put $15-30K into the project. You could probably get away with as little as $7-10K, but it won't look good.

You can see why Tim published his first two as a pamphlet and as a booklet.

And you can see why I type set my first book myself, printed all copies on a laser printer in 8 1/2 x 11, and went to Kinko's for binding.

Good Luck,

JL

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

Duncan's picture

15-30K? Are You Serious???

Check Please!!!

jhb's picture

Hi Duncan,

I'd have a website built that would allow us to purchase it as an e-book. With profits from that site you could plow it back into paying for printing fees if you desired.

There are e-book programs available that will insure that your material is not lifted by an unscrupulous purchaser.

Looking forward to your book.

jhb

Duncan's picture

Definitely an interesting idea. I must say though that I hate reading things in electronic format (as opposed to a good old fashioned book) especially if it is 850 pages! Either way I do need a website. If there are any web builders out there who have nothing better to do, drop me a line! Duncan@peoplepc.com

JL's picture

For a book the size of yours?

Unfortunately yes.

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

jhb's picture

Duncan,

Another fine article, as usual.

In the "replies" section at the following link further validation of a gap in Daniel's 70th week is provided:

http://planetpreterist.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&thold=-1&m...

I continue to look forward to your book's publication.

jhb

mazuur's picture

Duncan,

Excellent article. I am looking forward to the book.

I especially found the footnote 2 very interesting. I had never heard that before. Great info.

Have you read Max King's dealings with Dan in, "The Cross and Parousia"? He too settles on a small gap. If you haven't read it, it's a great read. Only 48 pages, but good none the less.

-Rich

-Rich

Reformer's picture

Personally, I believe restorting to the use of a gap in any interpretative presentation weakens its reliability.

For a no-gap presentation and understanding see my book, "Beyond the End Times," pages 71-109.

Likewise, I believe that contending for a full establishment of the final form of God's kingdom as not happening until A.D. 70 is also weak, at best. Instead, I suggest, it entered into human history in full-establishment form -- see Isaiah 9:6-7; Luke 1:33 -- in the flesh and blood body of the Lord Jesus Christ. From which it was only to increase, which it has done. And nowhere did Jesus or any NT writer ever refer to this kingdom as only partially present, already/not-yet/a foretaste/ or only semi-established prior to AD 70. We would be wise to listen to and follow their example.

For more on the establishment of the everlasting and final form of the kingdom on earth (and its nature), go to www.prophecyrefi.org and click on panel presenting three ETS paper presentations on this topic.

Blessings,

John Noe

Islamaphobe's picture

John,

A quick check of the postings under your post did not indicate familiarity with what you wrote in "Beyond the End Times." Because I agree with what you wrote, particularly on pp. 83-89, I shall mention that you suggest that the 490 years were literally finished without a gap if you attribute the last three and one-half years to the period running AD 30-34, which ended with the stoning of Stephen and the freeing of the followers of Jesus to take the Gospel to the Gentiles. The events of AD 67-70 were DETERMINED by what happened in AD 30, but they where not included in the literal 490 years. As I understand it, this line of reasoning is also followed by Gary DeMar and Ken Gentry. It makes sense to me.

John S. Evans

mazuur's picture

John,

"Likewise, I believe that contending for a full establishment of the final form of God's kingdom as not happening until A.D. 70 is also weak, at best. Instead, I suggest, it entered into human history in full-establishment form -- see Isaiah 9:6-7; Luke 1:33 -- in the flesh and blood body of the Lord Jesus Christ. From which it was only to increase, which it has done."

How about the resurrection" It clearly is presented as an already/not-yet too.

"And nowhere did Jesus or any NT writer ever refer to this kingdom as only partially present, already/not-yet/a foretaste/ or only semi-established prior to AD 70. We would be wise to listen to and follow their example.""

If this is true, then how do you deal with the various texts that clearly point into the future (from when the writer wrote the epistle) regarding the establishment of the Kingdom of God?

Thanks,
Rich

-Rich

Reformer's picture

I agree on resurrection, and also dittos for salvation. But not on the kingdom.

Re: "the various texts that clearly point to the future" . . . many NT texts point to the future and for different reasons. But none that I know of specify a future establishment or future full establishment of the kingdom.

JN

mazuur's picture

John,

It seems to me that Scripture presents everything (Resurrection, Salvation, Kingdom, Judgment, etc.) coming to fruition at the same time. All culminating in the coming of Christ. Notice I didn't say "second" coming. I do want to start that debate again with you.

"But none that I know of specify a future establishment or future full establishment of the kingdom."

While I agree the Kingdom was definitely established prior to AD 70. But, it is also stated to be a future thing as well. Sorry I can't be more specific on which Kingdom passages seem to point into the future for fulfillment. I will look some of them up tonight and get back to you.

-Rich

-Rich

mazuur's picture

"I do want to start that debate again with you."

Should read "I don't want ..."

Rich

-Rich

Duncan2's picture

Hi Rich and John,

I am at work and don't have time to respond at any length but I put one of those scriptures in my article, try Luke 19:11-27, which speaks of a delay of the full establishment of the kingdom on earth. It would happen at the Parousia at AD 70, cf. Mark 8:38-9:1.

Also look at Daniel. In Daniel 7 the little 11th horn overcomes the saints; then God comes (at AD 70) and the saints inherit the kingdom (Dan. 7:21-27). The saints inherit the kingdom after the great tribulation. AD 30-70 was the already/not yet of the kingdom. The kingdom was fully established in heaven at the AD 30 ascension (Rev, 12:1-12); it was fully established on earth at the AD 70 Parousia (Dan. 7:21-22).

ThomasS's picture

Dear Duncan,

I think I am not the only one wondering: How was, according to you, the fourth beast/little horn destroyed in 70 CE?

Th.S.

Duncan's picture

Dear Thomas,

Go to the left column and scroll down. Under the section for columnists click on my name. Read my article "The Supernatural Rulers Portrayed in Daniel and Revelation."

D.M.

ThomasS's picture

Dear Duncan,

How convenient for your interpretation that the little horn is a supernatural ruler (only). If this is the case, you may argue that the little horn died at any date in history -- it will not be possible for us to prove you wrong.

But both of us know that the Roman Empire grew more powerful after 70 CE; we also know that your candidate (you know who, who cannot be mentioned) for the earthly manifestation of "the antichrist" become more powerful after 70 CE.

I rest my case :)

Best wishes

Th.S.

Islamaphobe's picture

Your case rests on your refusal to recognize the spiritual nature of Christ's kingdom. In short, you are resting your case on quicksand.

John S. Evans

ThomasS's picture

John S. Evans,

I find your comments rather strange. I can assure you that I am not resting my case on quicksand. I am just pointing out the fact that Duncan's candidate for "the antichrist" didn't die in 70 CE., in fact he became more powerful after that year. It may be that you do not find that problematic (for Duncan's interpretation); personally I find this to be one of many reasons for not accepting his view.

When will the new edition of your book be published?

Best regards

Th.S.

Duncan's picture

Thomas,

What was destroyed at AD 70 was not a man but a demonic spirit that worked through a man. This was the soon to come (in John's day) demonic king from the abyss (Rev. 11:7; 17:8 NASB; cf. Dan. 10:13).

Duncan

ThomasS's picture

Duncan,

This logic makes almost every interpretation possible. You have to point to a text that actually proves that only "a demonic spirit", not the historical person, would die (or, at least, be weakened). Obviously, this didn't happen to your man (even if it may have happened to "a demonic spirit" - invisible for all of us). Any argument re: a demonic spirit may or may not be true; demonic spirits are usually invisible, so how can we prove your wrong?

There is a name for this kind of eisegesis: Special pleading.

I know you disagree with me. But I think you will have a hard time convincing other people as well. Perhaps you will win some votes from the Full Preterists. Time will show! Hopefully, your book will be reviewed critically, by both sides in the Preterist camp.

Th.S.

Islamaphobe's picture

I shall be putting out a book entitled "The Prophecies of Daniel Two" in the first part of next year. It will have eight chapters and be about 175 pages long. In it, I shall argue that the thousand years of Revelation 20 began in AD 70 and match the prophecy of the rock. I hope to put out "The Five Kingdoms of Daniel" before the year is over.

JSE

ThomasS's picture

Dear JES,

I am looking forward to your book on Dan 2. If you think we are currently in the so-called Millennium, you are probably correct (although I would not say that the "1000" years started in 70 CE). Interestingly, there was a tradition within the Roman Empire 'predicting' a period of 1000 years with peace after the fall of Rome. Personally, I find that rather interesting.

Regards

Th.S.

Reformer's picture

Dear Duncan,

I'm sorry but these verses do not demand or necessiate a future establishment of the kingdom on earth. What is more, the saints back then didn't have to wait until AD 70 to receive/inherit the kingdom (see Dan. 7:18; Heb. 12:28). And there is no such thing in the NT as an "already/not yet" re: the kingdom.

JN

Duncan2's picture

John,

You are discounting something I never said. I said nothing about a future establishment of the kingdom of God on earth. I said the kingdom was fully established on earth at the AD 70 Parousia.

Daniel 7:21-22 shows the saints receiving the kingdom at the coming of God. I say that is referring to the AD 70 Parousia. Apparently you think it is referring to a different time. So what is your interpretation of Dan. 7:21-22? When did it happen? When did the saints possess the kingdom?

Reformer's picture

Dear Duncan,

Please see all the comments preceding your post. What I am saying is the kingdom Jesus was bringing was fully established at his birth, and was not awaiting a future fuller establishment in AD 70.

JN

Duncan2's picture

I still await for you interpretation of Daniel 7:21-22. It shows the little 11th horn overcoming the saints (i.e. the tribulation). God then comes and the saints possess the kingdom (Dan. 7:23-27 shows the same sequence). I say this is the AD 70 Parousia. So what is your interpretation of it; when did the saints possess the kingdom (Dan. 7:21, 27)?

Reformer's picture

Dear Duncan,

Perhaps, you are right on this aspect. And this would coincide with Jesus statement about the kingdom being taken away and given to another people (Matt. 21:43). But the point at issue here is: when was this kingdom (brought by Jesus) fully established? In AD 70? Or before then? I maintain it was fully established at his birth (again, see previous posts).

JN

mazuur's picture

John,

I think we all agree the Kingdom came with Christ. But, it still had to be fully consummated. This was in AD 70 when the saints came into possession of the kingdom, just as Duncan has shown.

This is shown in other passages as well.

2 Tim 2:10-12
"For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory. 11 It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us; "

This passage also shown "salvation" was still future.

Matthew 25:31
" “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. "

Matthew 19:27-30
"Then Peter said to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?” 28 And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 “And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life."

Here it is stated Jesus would sit upon His throne at the regeneration. ie AD 70.

Matthew 16:28
“Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. "

Clearly Jesus was coming in His kingdom at the Parousia. ie. AD 70.

Heb 12:28
Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.

Shows the Kingdom coming into its fullness.

There are more passage, but I think you get the point.

-Rich

-Rich

Reformer's picture

Dear Rich,

None of these scriptures refute my contention that the kingdom was fully established at Jesus' birth and only to increase from there -- a la Isaiah 9:6-7, etc.

JN

davo's picture

So perhaps it is that we are splitting hairs… "the kingdom" [reign of God] came in its fullness in Christ, but there was a progressive inheriting of this fullness by the first-fruit saints in that transitional period AD30-70 as per "thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven" & "since we are receiving a kingdom" et al.

davo

MiddleKnowledge's picture

John,

I think you are on to something with this.

The fact that the kingdom was "taken" from some and "given" to another precludes the idea of it being "new" or "fully established" only at A.D. 70. (Sorry Duncan) How can something not yet in full existence be taken away from anyone?

I'm not sure if I would go with you on the birth of Christ, though. My views hinge largely on the creation week in John 1. I see the ministry as the entry of the "new heavens and new earth." That would correlate the "city on a hill" in the Sermon on the Mount with the New Jerusalem of Rev. 21-22. Jesus said they were the light of the world, and that is exactly what John speaks of at the end of Revelation.

The fact is that the nations came into the city/kingdom before A.D. 70. They didn't come into something that wasn't ready yet.

I am more of a preterist than most preterists I know.

Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org

Duncan's picture

Tim,

You wrote,

"The fact that the kingdom was 'taken' from some and 'given' to another precludes the idea of it being "new" or "fully established" only at A.D. 70. (Sorry Duncan) How can something not yet in full existence be taken away from anyone?"

Tim, I think you need to spend some time studying Daniel 2 and 7. Of course there was a full establishment of the kingdom of God.

"And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever." Dan. 2:44

This is shown again in Daniel 7:21-27. It was to happen in the days of the fourth beast, specifically at the time that God defeated the little eleventh horn.

Jesus won all power and authority in heaven and earth at the cross (Matt. 28:18). He would not fully exercise that authority until AD 70, however (when He would sit on the throne of His glory, cf. Matt 25:31-46). As late as AD 55 Paul was calling Satan the god of the pre AD 70 age, 2 Cor. 4:4.

Revelation 11:15-18 shows the full establishment of God's kingdom on earth, it would happen at the destruction of those who were destroying the Land [of Israel].

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever. And the 24 elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:
We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty the one who is and who was and who is to come, because You have taken Your great power and reigned. The nations were angry and Your wrath has come, and the time of the dead that they should be judged, and that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name small and great, and should destroy those who destroy the earth.

Jesus fully exercised the great power He received at the cross at AD 70. This was when the kingdom of this world fully became the kingdom of God. This was at AD 70, at the time of the destruction of those who were destroying the Land (which was also the time of the resurrection cf. Dan. 12:1-7).

Duncan

ThomasS's picture

Dear Duncan,

(1) Where in the text (Dan 9:24-27) do you find any reason for assuming the existence of a gap in the prophecy? (The 'reason' you are providing [in the excerpt form your book] sounds like special pleading to me.)

(2) Why don't you see Dan 9:24ff as parallel to Dan 8:14 (cf. Dan 9:23)?

Regards

Th.S.

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