You are hereJust A Tad Bit of Philosophy
Just A Tad Bit of Philosophy
by Samuel Frost
This article will contain no references to Matthew 24, Josephus or the visions of the Apocalypse (whew!). Instead, a much deeper problem appears on the Preterist horizon, and it ain’t Calvinism versus Arminianism. It’s Empiricism versus Presuppositionalism. Before you get your “isms” in a wad, let me define them for you. As Gordon Clark always stated, if you cannot define your terms, then you do not know what you are talking about. The problem of “definition” goes back to Plato’s Dialogues, which I wished every Christian read.This article will contain no references to Matthew 24, Josephus or the visions of the Apocalypse (whew!). Instead, a much deeper problem appears on the Preterist horizon, and it ain’t Calvinism versus Arminianism. It’s Empiricism versus Presuppositionalism. Before you get your “isms” in a wad, let me define them for you. As Gordon Clark always stated, if you cannot define your terms, then you do not know what you are talking about. The problem of “definition” goes back to Plato’s Dialogues, which I wished every Christian read.Having said that, and having studied far more than just Preterism, which is but one subject among a myriad of subjects, science has always intrigued me. At first, I believed (faith) that science could actually explain the universe and how it works. But, through college and seminary, I found that the more I read scientific literature, they were just as divided on issues as Christianity. Why? I thought. If someone could look at a rock, run a carbon-14 test on it and tell the date, origins and composite material, then isn’t that a definition of a rock? Well, no. It’s just what we call this thing that appears to have these particular properties and acts this particular way. But every individual rock is different. The same with zoology and botony. No two cats are the same. They have shared properties, but they each have distinct properties that make them different. This is the problem of individuation. But, I am getting ahead of myself.
No one would deny that Michael Polanyi was not a “scientist.” He was the professor of physical chemistry at the University of Manchester. He wrote Science, Faith and Society (University of Chicago Press, 1946). In his opening chapter, “Science and Reality”, he stated, “Never yet has a definite rule been laid down by which any particular mathematical function can be recognized, among an infinite number of those offering themselves for choice, as the one which expresses a natural law. It is true that each of the infinite number of available functions will, in general, lead to a different prediction when applied to new observations…” (21). He goes on to state that science cannot, from a choice of infinite choices of measurements, grant absolute explanations called “natural laws.” Natural laws are defined as fixed laws of the observable universe, like dropping an apple on Newton’s head.
Now, before going further, we must define Empiricism. “In all its forms, empiricism stresses the fundamental role of experience. As a doctrine in epistemology it holds that all knowledge is ultimately based on experience” (Concise Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, Routledge, 2000), “Empiricism”, William P. Alston). Now, remember what Clark said above. We must define our terms. What, then, is the definition of “experience”? Alston immediately is aware of the problem and, thus, attempts to define “experience”: “It is difficult to give an illuminating analysis of ‘experience’. Let us say that it includes any mode of consciousness in something that seems to be presented to the subject, as contrasted with the mental activity of thinking about things” (ibid.). Wow. Instead of saying , “let us say,” he really means “let us assume.” But, I have not defined Presuppositionalism, yet. “Any” mode of “consciousness” begs to be defined as well, but, alas, Mr. Alston does not do so. What the heck is “conscious”? Has anyone ever “seen” being “conscious” under a microscope? The Apostle Paul talks a great deal about the conscience, but Paul receives this information from the revelation of God. It is strange, indeed, that “experience” is based on “something presented to the conscious” and, in turn, “conscience” is not based on anything presented or seen at all! verblüffend! Secondly, he used the phrase “seems to be presented.” It “seems” to some that aliens gave them a probing in the night. If “experience” is based on what “seems” (may or not) be presented to the subject, then we hardly have a definition of experience.
Nonetheless, Alston goes on to say, “but empiricists usually concentrate on sense experience, the modes of consciousness that result from the stimulation of the fives senses” (ibid.). This is loaded. Note that the fives sense stimulate the consciousness of a person. But do they tell him or her anything? The definition above already stated that “all knowledge” is derived from “experience” and, thus, all knowledge is derived from the five senses stimulating the conscious person. Theology is impossible, but, so is science.
Take a breath. I have not even begun. Before, we quoted Polanyi, who is what is called a “critical realist.” Ben Meyer defined critical realism as “intensely empirical” (Critical Realism and the New Testament, Princeton Theological Monograph Series, 1989). John Polkinghorne is a critical realist, too. Yet, based on this methodology (which is basically Kantian, but that’s another dead German philosopher’s story), Polkinghorne cuts to the chase with what it means for idiots who believe that the Bible is without error: “For me, the Bible is neither an inerrant account of propositional truth nor a compendium of timeless symbols” (Faith, Science & Understanding, Yale Nota Bene, 2000). Yet, Polkinghorne, noted scientist, believes in the Christian faith. He just does not start with the Bible, but with Empiricism. If one starts with “experience” and “senses,” then one can never arrive to the conclusion that the Bible is the word of God.
Now we can define Presuppositionalism. It is the philosophy that insists that one must start on unprovable propositions. A proposition is simply a declarative statement, like, “All knowledge is derived from sensation.” If one must prove every statement, then one could never start anywhere. The conversation would go on ad infinitum. The Bible has an answer for this: the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. That is, one starts with God. But which God? There are a lot of gods floating around. However, the God of the Bible is defined by His own self-disclosure (revelation), and revelation knowledge is hardly empirical. It comes to the mind ab extra (from outside). One does not pick up a rock, see a cloud, hear a sound and conclude: Jesus died for my sins! How did you become convinced? The Bible answers: the Holy Spirit opened the eyes of my heart. Hardly empirical.
Before we wrap this up, let’s go back to science and talk about measurements, mentioned by Polanyi above. Measurement is the stuff of science. Lines, spheres, triangles, weight, mass and the like are all measured, and the ratios of these measurements are relentlessly tested over and over again. If they continue to perform the predicted task, then a “law” has been “discovered.” However, as Polanyi noted, measurements require a “choice” from an infinite selection of where to begin. Gordon Clark, stated this years ago: “If mathematical equations could describe nature, the chance of choosing the correct description is one over infinity, or zero. Therefore, all the laws of physics are false” (Philosophy of Science and Belief in God, Trinity Foundation, 1996 [1964]). This is not to say that what we call “laws” and the like are not useful constructions, they most certainly are useful. I would not be able to type on a computer screen were it not for the usefulness of Boolean symbolic logic! Scientist P.W. Bridgman wrote, “The attitude of the physicist must…be one of pure empiricism. He recognizes no a priori principles which determine or limit possibilities of new experience” (The Logic of Modern Physics, Macmillan Paperbacks, 1960). A priori simply means where one starts their system. A physicist cannot have any starting points, because possible new, unknown factors may alter the hypotheses, and if the physicist is committed to his system in spite of these unexpected factors, then he is no longer a scientist, but a propagandist. In short, to quote Polkinghorne again, “Science never is absolutely certain, nor is its method absolutely clear cut” (op. cit.). The only way it can be absolutely certain is to have all possible knowledge available in all possible worlds. In order to know anything, empiricism must know everything (omniscience), but empiricism cannot know everything, therefore, it cannot know anything.
How about a few quotes from atheistic scientists? Popper, legendary in his field, wrote, “..in science we do our best to find the truth, [but] we are conscious of the fact that we can never be sure we have got it…” (Popper Selections, “Two Kinds of Definitions”, Princeton University Press, 1985). Or, “All scientific statements are hypotheses, or guesses, or conjectures which have turned out to be false” (Conjectures and Refutations: the Growth of Scientific Knowledge, Harper and Row, 1968). Or, take this quote from celebrated atheist and scientist-mathematician, Bertrand Russell: “All inductive arguments in the last resort reduce themselves to the following form: “if this is true, that is true; now that is true: therefore, this is true.” This argument is, of course, formally fallacious. Suppose I were to say “if bread is a stone, and stones are nourishing, then this bread will nourish me; now this bread does nourish me; therefore, it is a stone, and stones are nourishing.” If I were to advance such an argument, I should certainly be thought foolish, yet it would not be fundamentally different from the argument upon which all scientific laws are based.” It appears, then, that Russell, Clark, Polanyi, Popper, Bridgman, Polkinghorne and many, many other scientists are in agreement: scientism can never grant absolute, propositional knowledge. It is thoroughly empirical, and as such, must remain empirical through and through. If it starts with the senses, it must demonstrate by sensation how sensation becomes conceptual in the mind, and, it must demonstrate that a mind exists at all (naturalists and behaviorists psychologists like Skinner, Rogers, and the like deny “mind” but only what they “see”: the brain. There is no “mind”). The problems with empiricism are so varied that these three pages here are hardly even the tip of the tip of the tip of the tiniest fraction of the tip of an iceberg.
So, when a person in here tells me that he can measure the sun and then state that is has “roughly 4 or 5 billion years left on it” I must laugh. When the Bible says, “This is what the LORD says: 'If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed laws of heaven and earth, 26 then I will reject the descendants of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his sons to rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” (Jer. 33.25-26). This is repeated in 33.19-22. The logic is clear: If you can break my covenant with the day and the night (sun and moon) and the fixed laws of heaven and earth, then I reject the seed of Jacob and David my servant. Yet, we know that “David my servant” is promised a seed “forever” and that that answers to Jesus, who is the messianic David. Therefore, God will not break his covenant with the day or the night. Therefore, his covenant with the day and the night is forever as Jesus is forever. For those who argue that the term “forever” has no notion of “time without end” may want to spend a few years in Hebrew lexicography. The term is applied to God. Is He “everlasting to everlasting” or will he, too, “burn out” one day?
Psalm 104.5 states, “He set the land on its foundations, it can never be moved.” Here, the word “forever” is not used, but a more explicit syntactical phrase means the same thing. Psalm 89.34-36 is explicit in terms of what we read in Jeremiah: “I will not violate my covenant or alter what my lips have uttered…I will not lie to David…his line will continue forever and his throne endure before me like the sun.” Hmmm. Let’s apply logic: if David’s line lasts forever by the unalterable covenant of God swearing by himself, then the sun must last just as long, therefore, the sun lasts forever. I can quote at least ten more references like this, but I think you get the picture. The figurative-metaphorical passages that speak of the sun being no more, or the heavens rolling up and vanishing are the non-literal passages, but the passages that speak of the eternal endurance of the good creation of God are the literal. Now, for some pseudo-scientist to come along and say with absolute certainly that the sun will “burn out” one day, in light of this paper, is, in my mind, not a Christian thinker.
In conclusion, Preterism must reject empiricism, common sense philosophies, critical-realist epistemologies, Kantian experientially derived analytical propositions and the like. It must begin with the revelation of God. It must end with the revelation of God. When any other view, such as historical “evidence” or scientific “veridicalism”, is used as the place to start, the Bible becomes, automatically, regulated to that view. In short, the Bible comes to be judged by man, rather than the man judged by the Bible. We decide what is, and is not “God’s word” by our own mental capacities and philosophies rather than regulate our minds to the word of God, written. Scientism is the original lie: did God say? “Hey, Eve, look at the tree, discover it, taste it, touch it, feel it. It will make you feel good.” And then Eve thought, “it does look pleasing to the eyes, and it appears desirous for food.” Had she just stood on the revealed word of God, Satan would not have had a chance.




Well, Virgil,
You should know that a good (or bad) ultra-fundamentalist, King James Bible-believing (1611 version) Christian will quickly tell you that it's obvious "from the Bible" that "the beginning" of Creation can be easily ascertained by simply following the complete geneology of Christ back to Adam, as recorded Luke.
And then add 5 days to that...
Peace to you all,
C. Livingstone
Chris,
Every preterist can see that the "heavens and earth" in Jer. 4:28 is Jerusalem and the Temple. And after the destruction, it is all dark and void. Just the same as the "heaven and earth" was in Gen. 1:1-2.
So how do you know Gen. 1:1 refers to the creation of the universe? Using Scripture to interpret Scripture, obviously, Gen. 1-2 is describing the creation of the Holy City, the Temple, and Adam as it's priest.
Your preterism will be worthless until you apply it seriously to Scripture.
JL
Blessings,
JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science
Well, JL,
I wasn't disputing "heaven and earth". Maybe that was someone else.
I don't lack seriousness, and I'm usually on the lookout for things that I may have overlooked and which others have noticed. But for you to suggest that Gen. 1:1 refers to something other than the context which the human species finds itself is certainly something beyond a useful form of Preterism.
So, maybe you can explain yourself better, about how you believe that Genesis has nothing to do with Creation, but rather the arranging of "the Holy City, the Temple, and Adam as it's priest."
Peace to You,
C. Livingstone
Chris,
Have you read Jer. 4 lately? Vs 28 is an explicit undoing of Genesis 1.
Just like you've never considered the Biblical arguments for an old earth or that the two creation accounts are separate events, you've not considered the implications that Jer. 4:28 has for Gen. 1. If you haven't tried looking at Gen. 1 as a local event or as an anti-type of the destruction of Jerusalem, you haven't done your homework.
I'm not saying it's the correct interpretation. I'm saying that you need to investigate it just like you did preterism and from your preterist understanding of apocalysm
Have fun.
JL
JL
Blessings,
JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science
Well, JL,
What I see beginning at Jer. 4:23 is a reinteration of Genesis 1, and warnings that Jerusalem was to be destroyed and that a Babylonian captivity would follow, due to Israel and Judah's idolatry.
I'm open to different views about the Creation time-sequence. But I'm also satisfied that the fossil record agrees with the Bible that humanity has been on the planet for about 10,000 years, which is also a statistical likelihood for the first two humans to have appeared in order to get as many people on the planet that we have today.
Peace to you,
C. Livingstone
Yes, that's true...King James believing people also read in Matthew 24 about the end of the world, not the end of the age.
What does the creation of Adam have to do with when the earth was created? And which genealogy are you following? The one in Luke doesn't match the one in Matthew..some people are left out, etc. Which genealogy?
Well, Virgil,
You should know that, in simple narrative terms, Adam was created on the sixth Day, i.e., five "days" after the Earth.
Peace to you,
C. Livingstone
Where exactly does the Bible say that the earth was created on the first day?
Yeah,
From a simple narrative perspective, Genesis says all of Creation was completed by the sixth Day:
"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work... Genesis 2:1 & 2
Previous to the "first Day" (Gen. 1:5), the "earth was without form" (Gen. 1:2) and by the "third Day" seed-bearing plants had dry ground (Gen, 1:9-13) for themselves.
Of course, the seasonal periods were established by the "fourth Day".
So, Virgil, these are things you know.
Do you see those seven "Days" consisting of 24 hour periods for each?
Or, do you seem them as Allegory?
Peace to you,
C. Livingstone
Yes, I believe (at least at this point in my life) that the days of creation are 24 hour periods. That doesn't explain WHEN planet Earth was created, and it doesn't automatically mean it was created on the first day. What I see is a void planet, without life and form, created a very long time ago, perhaps millions of years ago, on which God decided to create life, perhaps between 50,000 and 15,000 years ago.
Yeah,
I'll agree that the narrative suggests that something was there to begin with, before the "first Day", but to call it a "planet" or even the "earth" is just a reference term, I think.
There was no dry land, no light, just water. Genesis states that, "... and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
So, Virgil, why stop at 15-50,000 years for when you think God suddenly decided to create lifeforms to begin to inhabit the void.
Whatever it was could have been there billions of years.
And that opens the door to a Dual-Creation aspect. I mean, where'd the "face of the deep" and "the waters" come from? Were they part of a Greater Context. Should we ask if God created everything within Himself, as in Panentheism, not to be confused with Pantheism?
Like I said, I haven't settled on a standard Creation position yet. But, I think the Genesis account displays a God who created out of love, and was not frustrated by the Serpent or the Fall. Adam was warned, like a child often is, that the fruit from the tree in the midst of the Garden would do real damage to Adam and cause a split, i.e., "knowledge of good and evil", e.g., "Who told you you were naked?" God asked, as if that were a true question God was wondering about.
Peace to you,
C. Livingstone
"Who told you you were naked?"
Funny thing God should ask when there were only two humans in existence?
http://www.covenantpreterism.ning.com
Also,
Apart from being a rhetorical question about being naked, and since you brought up "only two human in existence" I'll mention that the narrative suggests that there were other creatures capable of dialogue, not humans alone.
It's interesting that Eve was not shocked by the creature, at the moment it spoke with her in the Garden. It might have even been a pet of hers, which with she might have had harmless dialogues quite often, until that point in which it became suddenly possessed with a higher intellect, and then tricked her.
Of course, we don't really know what that creature was that spoke to Eve, even the meaning of the Hebrew word was lost, I believe. But, after the Fall, God caused that creature to tread in the dust of the ground, so most believe that snakes are its present form.
Peace to you,
C. Livingstone
Right, that is what I find awesome about the question God asks, "Who told you.....".
I don't necessarily think God was being cute with them, rather genuinely referring to other beings/creatures - as if He specifically created these other beings/creatures to speak (whether audibly or inaudibly).
The type of speech brought forth from the serpent indicates a human-like intelligence. Wouldn't this indicate a type of equality with humans? Yet we specifically see a divide between man and beast. Or, perhaps the serpent was the only beast to demonstrate this behavior. Or as many suggest, Satan entered the serpent and caused it to spoke.
The earth was still new, Eve was relatively young - it wouldn't surprise me if Eve wasn't the least bit phased by a beast suddenly talking to her.
http://www.covenantpreterism.ning.com
Well,
I think the "Who told you..." was rhetorical?
Nobody, execpt Adam himself, told him that he was naked.
Or, remember when Jesus told Peter, "get behind me Satan".
Peace to you,
C. Livingstone
Yeah,
That was the ego split. Previously there was only life, and it was good, and it still is.
But the dialogue is almost funny, in places, much like a wise parent with an errant five year old.
Peace to you,
C. Livingstone
I'm not Virgil, but I do want to get one word in.
What if the first few chapters of Genesis are Apocalyptic? Notice that all the same language of early Genesis comes up late in the book of Revelation - something we readily recognize as apocalyptic. Why can't our Scriptures open and close in Apocalypse?
Apocalyptic is historical, but in a form that uses highly charged theological symbolism and hyperbole. It's not that there are no physical events spoken of in Genesis 1-3. It's that the poetic language is performing a different function than straight, literal historical narrative contrary to so much literalistic creation science material - ultimately contrary to a literalistic reading of Revelation.
Beside the obvious connections between the tree of life and the garden in both Revelation and early Genesis, there are others. The rivers, gold and jewels of early Genesis bear a striking resemblence to the New Jerusalem of Rev 21. Another connection that is nearly universally overlooked by expositors is the story of the woman and the serpent. In Genesis the serpent tempts the woman. In Rev. the serpent chases the woman and tries to kill her. Again, the imagery is very similar. Notice the imagery of the pain of childbirth in Rev. 12. There are many more connection that lends credibility to the idea that Genesis begins with apocalypse.
One thing I am very persuaded of. A preterist paradigm has as profound implications for our understand of the Genesis as it does Revelation and NT prophecy.
Just a thought I'm working on for a revision and update of my booklet, BEYOND CREATION SCIENCE: How Preterism Refutes a Global Flood. I'd love any input.
Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org
Yeah,
That's all interesting stuff.
In Revelation certain Christians are told that if they overcome they would be able to partake of the tree of Life in the midst of the Paradise of God. Of course, I don't think that tree in Revelation is, or was, a literal tree with roots located on the earth somewhere. And I'm sure the first-century Christians were not wondering how to locate Paradise or the exact tree.
But I do tend to hold the door open that the allegory probably began, in Genesis, with a literal/material tree that was a model/figure for the reality of the true source of Life.
I don't know how Preterism impacts on the Flood parameters. It seems obvious to even secular types that there was a great Flood upon this earth at the time the Bible mentions. There is even a well known layer of silt that can be found around the landscape which is around 15 feet thick. But, I don't know if that silt layer is found on the Australian continent.
Peace to you,
C. Livingstone
What if the first few chapters of Genesis are Apocalyptic?
I don't know about the first few chapters, but the first few verses clearly are eschatological in nature. A lifeless, formless world (planet) - God shows up and boom...there is overwhelming physical life.
Enter AD 70: A formless, lifeless world. God shows up and boom, there is overwhelmin spiritual life.
It's not a coincidence - and this may confirm that the planet itself is much older than we think and it was not created during the first day of creation. Genesis 1:1 is a clear indication that God's presence brings an end to "death" and brings reason and structure to reality.
An old earth doesn't automatically validate the theory of evolution. Do you mean the earth is "young" as in "life on it is young" or do you mean "it was created out of nothing recently?"
Continuing to ignore science will not help Christianity along very much - the solution is not opposing obvious scientific evidence which dates rocks to be millions of years old. The solution is to reconcile science with Scripture...it is quite possible to do so and maintain the account of Creation.
Virgil,
You are not seeing the problem. "Ignoring obvious scientific evidence." What "obvious scientific evidence"? Carbon-14 dating? Are you aware of the process of Carbon-14 dating? According to your view, the Red Sea never split, Samson never was, Elijah never existed and Abraham is a myth. Prove them. Virgil, Liberal Christianity bases its conclusions on the very same wording you have used here. The starting point of your view is not Scripture, but observation, regulating and harmonizing the "obvious scientific evidence" and making God's word "fit" it, instead of the other way around. "Evidence" must FIT GOD'S WORD, since God's word take PRECEDENCE. To suggest that rocks dated by man overturns the clear text of Genesis 1 is simply amazing.
Samuel Frost
Sam - because of its short half-life, carbon 14 dating can only be used for the accurate dating of fossils. It has almost nothing to do with the red sea splitting and the existence of Elijah.
And when did I say that man's dating of rocks overturns the text of Genesis 1? There are several possibilities and ways to approach this. If you take the hardline that you are taking, that makes a dialogue on this topic impossible...try to be a little more generous to those of us who are not where you are in our thinking :)
Actually, because of its SHORT half-life, C14 can only be used for dating stuff less than 16K years of age - and maybe even less.
http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/ncarbon.htm
http://www.ldolphin.org/sewell/c14dating.html
Sam,
I know well the philosophical position you come from. I have studied Popper, Kuhn, Kant, etc. I hear where you are coming from, and appreciate your presentation of these very important developments by very important thinkers. Thinkers who did not begin with the revelation of God and who, in many ways did not end with the revelation of God as they formulated their positions. Unbelieving thinkers whom you rely upon, ironically enough.
There are some issues I would like to go in depth with, but will only mention for now. I agree with your position that the Christian must begin and end with the revelation of God. However, I believe that God reveals himself not only in Scripture, but in the world around me. Classical theologians have termed "both books" of God's revelation as special and general revelation. If this is true then the scientist who does *good* science and looks at God's creation to learn God's thoughts after him is as much relying upon God's revelation as the theologian who limits all of God's revelation to the Scripture and then *assumes* his interpretation is inspired. This is a crippling oversight in your position and would, if pressed to consistency - rule out any revelaton of God beyond the written Scriptures. Do you deny that God reveals himself in the created, physical world and universe?
Another point to consider is the issues these unbelieving philosophers bring forth are just as relevant to the "science" of biblical interpretation. In other words, your pointing this problem out to the scientist is true applicable and fair. There is this issue of the Philosophy of Science that cannot go away merely by observation and experimentation. Yet what is also true is that this connection between position and paradigm is just as relevant for the interpreter of Scripture. There are plenty of Christians out there who would chastise you for your interpretation of heavens and earth, world, etc. - saying you have left the obvious (literal) meaning of these things. So the divides that do remain among scientist no more falsify all science than the divides among theologians falsify all biblical interpretation.
The real issue is what makes for good biblical interpretation? What makes biblical interpretation trustworthy? The same goes for science. What makes for good scientific observation? What makes scientific advancement trustworthy and repeatable?
I again caution preterists in jumping out into the creation-vs- science debate without deeply considering the linguistic issues. Young earth creationists tend to make the language issues simple - they literalize everything including Matt. 24 and Revelation. Responding to this in some sort of "partial" literalness where one text of biblical language represents a figurative reading and another usage of the same phraseology and terms represent a literal reading is an unstable, arbitrary method. Methodologically, it is no different from the principles of partial-preterism which assigns some texts to fulfillment, and some texts to the future when the language relations and parallel usage rules this dissection as impossible.
Please be careful declaring what scientists say about the sun as being "Unchristian" on the authority of Scripture.
Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org
Hello Mr. Martin, (:
you said: "I believe that God reveals himself not only in Scripture, but in the world around me"
How do you know God reveals Himself in the world - aren't you basing this knowledge on something Scripture says? Would you argue for 'general revelation' if you didn't believe it was taught in the Bible?
For an empiricist to argue from the Bible the idea of general revelation, is to contradict his own thesis, that: "knowledge is ultimately based on experience"
What is your proof of 'general revelation'?
thanks,
Jason
thereignofchrist.com
Jason,
First of all I am not an empiricist. Second of all I do not believe that general revelation is equivalent with natural theology.
General revelation is God's communication through his physical creation. Natural theology is the idea that you can build a specific Christian theology based only on nature. I believe in general revelation, but I reject natural theology. God communicates in all that he has made, yet God is known through the Scriptures which testify to Jesus Christ.
Now to your question.
General revelation is an assumption in order to make sense of Scripture in the first place and is verified by Scripture in the last place.
For example. How much of the Scripture comes to us in creational language? All of Jesus' parables use creational imagery and details. From planting and harvesting, to husbandry, wind, rain, etc. The Kingdom of God is like... If Jesus calls his people his sheep, he assumes his hearers are well familiar with that metaphor. Likewise to all the creational pictures Jesus and all the prophets used. It is overwhelming to catalog how much of our Scripture relies on communication based on the creational experience. That being the fact, it is necessary to know creation in order to understand Scripture.
Now, I could ask you where in Scripture are all those creational things defined and communicated - in their essence? They aren't. And so our knowledge of Scripture relies on something beyond Scripture.
The Scriptures cannot be relied upon solely to know creation. Where in Scripture can I know what planting seed or pulling weeds or harvest time really is? These are used in Scripture (I could multiply examples), yet they are never defined propositionally by Scripture. Our knowledge of the common world around us is a symbiotic part of our understanding of Scripture.
A narrow definition of revelation, as Sam relies upon, makes nonsensical vast portions of Scripture which assume the hearer is already familiar with creational elements as a first step to understand the spiritual doctrines and worldview issues of Christianity.
This also works the other way, too. We must know Scripture in order to know creation. Only the Christian worldview can account for what we see in our world and the reliability which is undeniable. Our world is made with a purpose, or teleology, which everywhere points to the creator. That is communication. So, in Scripture we know the meaning of Creation.
At their best, these "two books" of God's words and acts relate to each other symbiotically. As I know creation better, I know Scripture better. As I know Scripture better, creation makes more sense and is more beautiful.
You can say that there is only revelation in Scripture. Yet, Scripture itself assumes the revelatory universe around us, from beginning to end,
Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org
Tim,
Typical of Van Til, you have a contradiction on your hands. You state, "We must know Scripture in order to know creation. Only the Christian worldview can account for what we see in our world and the reliability which is undeniable. Our world is made with a purpose, or teleology, which everywhere points to the creator. That is communication. So, in Scripture we know the meaning of Creation" Then, you also state, "A narrow definition of revelation, as Sam relies upon, makes nonsensical vast portions of Scripture." Which is it? If we know creation by Scripture, or "for what we see" (your words), then how do we know the "creational elements" that, in your words, are not in Scripture? Are you suggesting that "sheep" offers revelation knowledge? Or "Seeds"? That is, since the Scriptures do not give us knowledge about the gestation of sheep, and since we claim to know the gestation of sheep, then we have been given revelation (general) of the gestation period? I would hardly call this revelation knowledge at all. Knowledge is fixed, immutable, absolute propositions, always true in all possible worlds. We can hardly make any statement concerning the gestation of sheep that would fit this criteria, therefore, it is not "knowledge." God's knowledge is immutable, absolute, and fixed in all possible situations. Propositions concerning "truth" must be the same, yet, no person has observed all possibilities in order to "fix" the gestation of sheep as absolute in all worlds. Reproduction data (and that's all it is) is subject to change (this type of reasoning is used by bio-ethicists and abortion rights ethicists, euthanasia, et al, because, as empiricists, they know that truth, in the sense defined above, does not exist). Like Kant, Van Til attempted to synthesize experience and a priorism, and, like Kant, I believe he failed. I don't know how my definition of Scripture (revelation knowledge) renders vast portions of this revelation "nonsensical." Nature, in no way, points to God unless one KNOWS GOD (regenerate). David saw a cloud and maginified the Lord. The meteorologist saw a cloud and said, "we have a cumulonimbus on our hands!"
Samuel Frost
Nature, in no way, points to God unless one KNOWS GOD
You have managed to create conditional truth/s which stack on previous beliefs. You are left with no absolute reality.
Just because someone doesn't see God in nature, doesn't make nature any less God's.
Nature and science are God's handiwork whether you believe it or not - its absolute.
Psalm 19:1 - "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handiwork."
For a reformed Christian you suprisingly base God's truths on what a person believes or disbelieves.
A similar argument may sound as such: Did Christ still die for the unbelievers' sins, whether or not they believe He did?
-A
http://www.covenantpreterism.ning.com
Sam wrote -
"Typical of Van Til, you have a contradiction on your hands. You state, "We must know Scripture in order to know creation. Only the Christian worldview can account for what we see in our world and the reliability which is undeniable. Our world is made with a purpose, or teleology, which everywhere points to the creator. That is communication. So, in Scripture we know the meaning of Creation" Then, you also state, "A narrow definition of revelation, as Sam relies upon, makes nonsensical vast portions of Scripture." Which is it?"
Sam,
I don't believe we are presented a choice between either/or. It is really a matter (in my opinion) of both/and. We need both our experience of God's world and knowledge of direct revelation. I would not say that they are necessarily equal in volume or impact, but they are both equally necessary.
Again, the Scriptures teach many things through creation which assumes true experiential knowledge. In the sheep example, I am not referring to "facts about" sheep as revelatory. It's not raw data. I am referring to the *nature* of sheep as created by God -the teleology- which is revelatory and complementary to Scripture. When Jesus says his sheep hear his voice and follow him, I can only understand that revelation by understanding the nature of sheep and shepherds in their nature as God has created them to be. That is communication, albeit indirect, metaphorical, and analogical.
When Jesus spoke his parables he spoke to both believers and unbelievers and impressed upon them both what the kingdom of God is like... He assumed they knew what things like mustard seeds, wheat and tares, etc, were naturally. Now, it proved to some to point to God and others not to, but the subjective experience of Jesus' hearers does not negate the objective communication that all these things communicate within the Christian worldview. Just because someone doesn't hear the message does not mean the message does not exist!
As far as the cloud example, again, I am not talking data or scientific terminology. I am talking about the *nature* of the cloud as it works in creation. The clouds are lifted up and exalted. They tower over the land. They bring blessing in rain and curses in hailstorms. This is the communicating world we live in, which, in tandem with Scripture, reveals God.
Perhaps we are missing each other in definition of "truth" or "knowledge." Philosophy splinters over these very definitions. The center, though, is epistemology.
Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org
Your refrigerator works.
Blessings,
JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science
Tim,
As one who follows hard on the philosophy of Gordon H. Clark, J. Gresham Machen, Carl F.H. Henry and Robert Reymond, to name just a few, I reject "general revelation" and Van Tilianism altogether. No one can pick up a rock and deduce "God exists." David was only able to say "the heavens reveal the glory of God" because David KNEW God. He did not say this as one with a blank slate mind, anymore than he said it as a purely impartial observer. There is no such thing as an impartial observer. Impartiality does not exist, which is why the older "scientism" of Ernst Mach and others has, or is, collapsing. Science is useful (Operantionalist scientist, like Broad and Bridgman), but when it starts constructing dogma, it is no longer science. It cannot conduct dogma.
Secondly, "thy word is the truth" is a propisiton I accept by revelation. I did not observe it, nor test it. Thus, I would much like to engage you in these things, but by letting you know up front where I have stood on these matters for over a decade will help you when you respond to me. I define knowledge as immutable, absolute propositions, and empiricism can never give me this in any way, shape, or form. Only revelation can.
Samuel Frost
Sam,
You said, "No one can pick up a rock and deduce 'God exists.' David was only able to say 'the heavens reveal the glory of God' because David KNEW God.
My understanding of Scripture says that's false. My personal and professional experience says that's false.
The driving issue in cosmology today is that the heavens really do declare the glory of God. Those who refuse to believe it are trying to find a loophole in creation out of nothing at the literal beginning of time.
As for revelation, it can not give you immutable, absolute propositions. For it to do so would mean your understanding is Scripture, that your understanding is inspired and inerrant. It isn't. Your understanding of Scripture is as flawed as your understanding of the world through empiricism.
We don't even know what is Scripture and why. Our revelation is corrupted and we don't make a consistent attempt to deal with it. For the Old Testament, we use a Hebrew text that has gone through 2 major revisions since the time of Christ. We reject the ancient Greek translation as inferior. For half of our New Testament, we use Greek translations instead of the originals that we believe are suspect.
Yet our general revelation, which you disbelieve and claim as suspect now allows us to test certain physical laws over the entire physical universe over all times past since creation. And guess what, it says those better refrigerators would have worked there too.
Revelation has precisely the same limits as empiricism. That limit is man.
JL
Blessings,
JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science
Sam,
Godel's theorem requires us to go outside of a system to prove all possible propositions inside a system. Specifically, there are propositions that are true within a system, that can't be proven within that system.
I've been told you philosophy majors use this clever mathematical theorem. If that's true, then doesn't it require you to go outside Scripture and revelation?
JL
Blessings,
JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science
Sam,
Can you explain the basic difference between Clark and Van Til concerning presuppositionalism. All of my studies have been through the work of Dr. Bahnsen and Gary DeMar, and I never fully understood the cause of what seemed to be a conflict between the two camps.(Clark & Van Til)
All of this is fascinating, (and important, in my opinion) and I highly respect you all for your level of commitment to study and learn all these things.
Thank you,
Scott
Scott,
Sam has led me to Clark's writings in the past 6 months - highly recommend them. I also have at least two friends who are die hard VanTillians.
I would suggest reading Herman Hoeksema's book "The Clark-Van Til Controversy"
In it he reviews the whole controversy, (Clark's ordination was being protested) what went down, and interacts with the text of the 'Complaint'.
The first major difference between them was defining the incomprehensibility of God – the Complainants (Van Tillians) believe that the difference between our knowledge and God’s knowledge is both quantitative and qualitative. Clark insisted that it was only quantitative.
A classic example is to ask a Van Tillian whether God knows that 2+2=4. The consistent Van Tillian will object that the question is nonsensical and will not even answer it, for we cannot know how what God knows of 2+2. It means something different for God than what it means for man and to suggest that we can know a truth AS God knows it, destroys the creature/creator distinction.
The truth that Christ died for sins, was buried, and rose from the grave means, according to Clark, the same thing for both man and God. Certainly, God knows MORE about it than we do, but the little truth we do know means the same thing for God. Van Til believed that at NO SINGLE POINT, do God’s knowledge and man’s knowledge meet.
This was, in my opinion, the most crucial difference between the two. Ultimately, the Van Tillian idea of all our knowledge being analytical actually destroys any hope of a man actually possessing truth. If God speaks truth, and it means something different for us, than we don’t have the actual truth!
thereignofchrist.com
KingNeb,
Thank you for that. I'll have to look into it. Sometimes we get our favorite teachers/authors and we don't want to disagree with them. The Preterist view tends to change that, though!
What would be your best recommendation of Clark's work (on this subject), from what you've read thus far?
So KingNeb, are you Jason Lile??
Thanks again!
Scott Vento
Scott,
im jason bradfield. member of Christ Covenant Church (with Sam Frost). I moved down here two years ago after getting booted from a postmillennial baptist church for going 'full' preterist.
Clark, though not a preterist, had fantastic insights that i believe can be very valuable for 'preterism'.
Clark repeats alot of things in his book. of course, i recommend them all! It was tough reading for me at first (being new to the topic), but his repitition throughout his books helps tremendously.
Perhaps one that you should start with is "Religion, Reason, and Revelation" He explores the various views of the relationship between faith and reason, deals with inspiration and language, revelation, and a powerful chapter on God and evil.
there are also a number of free pdf's to read at http://www.trinityfoundation.org/archive.php
peace.
thereignofchrist.com
Thank you, Jason. I saw "Jason Lile" as a columnist here, and I see your name quite a bit. Just thought it might be you.
Thanks for the info. Clark's writings have got to be easier to read than Van Til!!
God Bless,
Scott
It's funny, Sam. You reject Van Tilianism? I just listened to a cassette tape debate between Greg Bahnsen and R.C. Sproul last night on apologetics - presuppositionalism vs. evidentialism. Sproul fully supported Van Til and his disciples as the MASTERS of presuppositionalism in apologetics as far as TEARING down the atheist's worldwide. Sproul's concern was that it didn't do the job in BUILDING up a positive worldview for the atheist that would lead him to Christ (i.e, which is what evidentialism does, again according to Sproul)
After reading your paper, I thought you were coming out for Van Tilianism. Please help my confusion here.
Thanks,
Kurt F.
thereignofchrist.com
Van Til believed that human knowledge was analogical to God's knowledge, and founded his system on the creator/creature distinction.
Clark's view was that the law of non-contradiction is the center of all reality and truth and therefore the center of a Christian presuppositional worldview.
What happened is that Clark ended up anathematizing Van Til related to Van Til's expression of trinitarianism. (Van Til wasn't always the most clear teacher which is understandable when English is not your first language) In response, Van Til was involved in various criticisms of Clark's presuppositional model. They had it out like cats and dogs - even though they were all in the house of "Reformed" theology.
Their heirs continue to have it out and continue to melt into the dustbin of history.
For the record I believe that Van Tillian apologetics represents the best system with a few reservations regarding fideism, the Hegelian connection, and the role of common grace in the knowledge of unbelievers. The ironic thing in this context is that Van Til was one of the leading proponents for what has become known as "Theistic Evolution." It would never enter Van Til's mind to consider such things we now know as young earth/creation science distinctives such as an instantaneous creation less than 10,000 years ago, global flood, etc. I think Van Til's disciples would do well to consider his writings on this topic carefully as well. He was way ahead of things sixty years ago.
Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org
"The ironic thing in this context is that Van Til was one of the leading proponents for what has become known as "Theistic Evolution."
Tim, this is kind of hard to swallow when Bahnsen, Van Til's heir apparent, uses Van Tilian presuppositionalism to totally discount "Theistic Evolution." I heard it from Bahnsen's own lips.
Kurt F.
thereignofchrist.com
Kurt,
Mea Culpa! After a close look in Bernard Ramm's THE CHRISTIAN VIEW OF SCIENCE AND SCRIPTURE which references "Van Till's theistic evolution" it occured to me that I have my Van Til(l)s mixed up. Cornelius Van Til is different than Howard Van Till, the latter being the proponent of Theistic Evolution. I have not been able to locate anything Cornelius Van Til said regarding the Bible vs. Science, Old Earth vs. young Earth debate. My apologies for this oversight. If any out there are aware of what Van Til actually taught on the subject, please enlighten us.
In tracking all this down I found a website that provides more information about Van Til. In it there is some info regarding the relationsihp between Van Til and Gordon Clark. The site is www.vantil.info.
Hope that helps.
Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org
Kurt,
I love the web.
Just found this.
http://www.reformed.org/creation/index.html?mainframe=van_til_on_creatio...
It's not very conclusive.
Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org
Is he any relation to Howard Van Til?
Blessings,
JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science