You are hereGive Me This Mountain (a review)

Give Me This Mountain (a review)


By Virgil - Posted on 10 February 2004

“Now for the first time the founding story of fulfilled Bible prophecy is told. From its roots seventy years ago in West Virginia to its breakthroughs in biblical renewal today – all across the world”.That is the first two sentences from the back cover of the Tim King book, “Give Me This Mountain”, a 195 page light reading. The book is a casual look at the development of Max King’s eschatological perspective and how that perspective has influenced what many now know as “preterism”.



Please allow me to give some background on the people involved in this book and review.



Roderick Edwards – That’s me. I’ve been a Preterist since 2001 and have been a columnist for PlanetPreterist.com since 2002.



Max King – Pastored several Church of Christ congregations since the 1950s but is best known for his eschatological (preterist) perspective, first expressed in the early 1970s. (See the book, The Spirit of Prophecy)



Tim King – A son of Max King and also had pastored in the Church of Christ, but is best known for taking the helm of Presence Ministries Int’l & developing the “Transmillenial™” perspective. Tim King is also the author of the book under consideration – “Give Me This Mountain”.



At first, I was resistant to the proposal on the back cover of the book. I mean the book seemed to be crediting Max King with the “founding” of the fulfilled Bible prophecy perspective. But then I weighed my hesitation with some other factors.



1) The author of the book is the son of Max King and to Tim King who was there as his father appeared to be the only man proposing this perspective it must seem like Max King “founded” this view.



2) We credit people throughout history as “founding” something although they were merely substantial contributors. Take for example how we say Christopher Columbus founded America when he had never actually set foot on main land North America much less even realized he was in America. Also consider theologians such as Martin Luther who we often credit with first espousing “justification by faith alone” even though others preceded him by hundreds if not thousands of years in espousing this seemingly obvious biblical perspective. And also consider John Calvin from whom the term “Calvinism” is applied. Calvin was not even present (he was dead) at the “founding” of the so-called TULIP (five point) response to the Arminian proposition as delivered at the Synod of Dordrecht 1618-19.



So, taking those thoughts into consideration and admitting to myself that indeed Max King did pioneer many of the elements of so-called modern day preterism I was able to get over this hesitation.



The book itself is both an introduction and a memorial. It will introduce the reader to the movement Max King brought about and at the same time I believe it is a loving memorial by a son to his father.



The book is not very clear as to how Max King actually came to the fulfilled Bible prophecy view. It appears that somewhere in the late 1950s as King was pastoring in a Pensboro, West Virginia church “Max became determined to understand the Book of Revelation as thoroughly as possible”. “The more he studied, the more convinced he became that John’s revelation was indeed fulfilled.” As he studied the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Daniel “he was seeing things he didn’t want to see – things that concerned him and seemed unmentionable even to [his wife], let alone anyone outside the family”.(1)



I’m curious if Max King had read any commentaries that may have influenced him in this direction. The Bible should be its own clear witness to the validity of this view but I keep thinking back to Martin Luther who was influenced by Augustine and even later by exposure to John Huss. I don’t recall reading that Max King had even read J.S. Russell’s “The Parousia” first published anonymously in 1878, nor should I expect Russell’s book was influential as the decades marched on to the dispensational fervor of the 1970s climax of Hal Lindsey’s “The Late Great Planet Earth”. Max King would first publicly express his conclusion about fulfilled Bible prophecy in a 1971 book he authored called “The Spirit of Prophecy”, from this point on life would never be the same in the King family.



Tim King recounts some rather painful memories with which we can only scarcely relate. Tim King writes: “From the mid- to the late `60s, Max began to share with the congregation what he saw unfolding in the Scriptures.”(2) “The church of the late `60s and early `70s was not the most open place for new ideas.” “All throughout the Ohio Valley and into West Virginia word spread that Max King was teaching ‘heresy’. Soon a preachers’ meeting was convened and some of the brotherhood leaders were brought in to discuss, debate and squelch these new ideas.”(3) But during this process which eventually lead to other Church of Christ congregations “disfellowshipping” with King’s congregation, Terry Hall (now a prominent preterist pastor) stood by and supported Max King.



Tim King is able to insert just the right amount of humor into the book so as not to make it sound like a bitter book of martyrdom and persecution. Tim King says, “It has become a family joke that we were so ostracized a family reunion for us was called ‘dinner’.”(4) King goes on to tell how when he was 12 years old at a church camp, some of the fellow campers made certain everyone else knew why they should not associate with the King family; “I mean, the last thing we can have at a camp for 12-year olds is a heretic! I was always leery of the campfire…”(5)



The book details some initial debates in which Max King participated but it seems the most effective influence that the King family would have is simply living out their lives in the fulfilled Bible prophecy perspective before the world.



I find it interesting how Tim King recounts how Max King’s qualifications were questioned by his own denomination. I mean, here is a man that had been a pastor for over 25 years; a man who was simply using the Scriptures to present his case but now the Bible wasn’t enough for his critics. Faced with this accusation, Max King took up studying every so-called eschatological scholar he could. During his studies Max King was “stunned at how many writers were content to say that Jesus or Paul or both were wrong.”(6) After his survey of the scholars, Max King would again write a book about fulfilled Bible prophecy, (The Cross and the Parousia of Christ – 1987) this time the accusation wasn’t that Max was being too rudimental but now it was that the book was too hard to understand.



The next highlight of the book comes when it discusses the meeting at Mount Dora, Florida in 1993. This was a meeting between Max King and R.C. Sproul. From the book, it seems like there was good reason to believe that inroads were being made but that those inroads were cut off by some unnamed “opportunist” that pushed the “preterist” view with too much zeal. I hope to write an article exploring the “roots” of the preterist movement.



The remainder of the book relates the focus of the Presence movement which is more “transformation” rather than “reformation”. In my opinion, this is an admirable focus.
As one who studies the Reformation I have come to the conclusion that they (the Reformers) were afraid to go the distance needed and instead did exactly what the word “reformation” means; they RE-formulated (or reconstituted) old concepts to fit their new paradigm. From this we now have individual pastors acting like mini-popes of their own personal “Romes”. From this we now have 34,000+ fragments of the “Church”, not that diversification is a bad thing but that disunity is a bad thing.



It is exciting to see how what many of us simply call “preterism” (which is becoming more and more like a Doctrines of Grace adherent using the dreaded “C” word) is impacting the world. It is exciting to read Tim King recall his visits with interesting people from around the world; Dr. Naim Ateek, a Palestinian Christian from East Jerusalem; Dr. Ernest Martin, author of The Temples that Jerusalem Forgot; Tom Getman, head of World Vision’s bureau in Jerusalem until 2002; Dr. Harvey Cox, a leading professor at Harvard Divinity School; N.T. Wright, Canon Theologian at Westminster Abbey and author of Jesus and the Victory of God.



I highly recommend that Christians and especially those calling themselves preterists read Give Me This Mountain by Tim King. I believe that even if you disagree with certain aspects of Presence Ministries or Tranmillennialism™, you will come away from this book yearning to live out the fulfilled Bible prophecy view in a more tangible way.



1. Give Me This Mountain, pg 21

2. pg 26

3. pg 28

4. pg 30

5. pg 32

6. pg 49

The website for Presence Ministries is: www.presence.tv

JayGary's picture

Rod, glad to see you enjoyed Tim's take on the roots and fruits of the fulfilled prophecy world. If those reading want to step into the unfinished story, I encourage you to pick up your own copy at: http://www.presence.tv/cms/books21.shtml

You speak of a coming "showdown" between the siblings of Max King, within the fulfilled prophecy world. That might be overdramatizing what is really taking place. I think instead you have Max King, the recognized champion of fulfilled prophecy (as progressive dispensationalists refer to him), growing decade by decade in his own understanding of Covenant Eschatology. So you have people who learned from Max King--1970s, that are still Church of Christ proponents, and do so within their denomination. You have folks that learned from Max King--1980s, who are "preterit" in their orientation, and largely reform, and you have people who learned from the Max King in 1990s-- who are Transmillennial. In terms of scholarship, Max King intends to publish a forthcoming book on Romans 9-11, to address his view of Paul's desire that "all Israel will be saved." At this point, without Max saying or publishing anything, some are making out "comprehensive grace" to mean anything they want. But Max King is not the kind of Christian gentleman that gets drawn into *****-fights. In keeping with scholarly norms, he will publish his next work and then it will be open to peer review, among historical Jesus and eschatology scholars. Max is more interested in studying what the Bible says and being challenged by published peer review, than being consistent with his earlier 1970 or 1980 formulations that have galvanized sects in themselves. So I think there will always be diverse preterit expressions, but Max & Tim have moved onto more complete and consistent expressions (as they see it) of fulfilled Bible prophecy. In that, you have to respect them, they are not respectors of any tradition, but keep the Bible as their authority for faith and practice.
--Jay Gary

Jay Gary, Helping Faith Communities Cultivate Foresight, http://www.jaygary.com

Roderick's picture

Jay,
You have done a fine job (better than I) of clarifying how these "camps/groups" came about, when you outlined the 1970s era, 1980s era, & the 1990s era believers in fulfilled prophecy. I wonder though, as you have clearly laid out the growth of each of these groups what will happen when Max King finishes his book on Romans 9-11? Will all Transmils accept it? Will we then see a 2000s era of believers in fulfilled prophecy that are greatly distinctive from the past eras? Are the previous eras not growing? Is the current era heading off on rabbit trails? I don't know the answers but the questions must be asked, especially because the way you have laid it out here it seems Max King is leaving a bunch of theological offspring in every city (symbolically) through which he passes. Now, I know its not Max King's fault if people latch on and then get stuck in an era/idea he seemed to create, but the danger is that the people latch on in the first place. As much as I respect and appreciate men (and women) of history that have been used to bring us to various points, we must not get stuck on men in any era of their ideas lest we remain Lutherans for the sheer sake of Luther or Calvinists, or 1970 Prets, 1980 Prets, 1990 Prets, 2000+ Prets and on and on.

I am greatly distressed about our continued infatuation with the ministry of any man, be it Billy Graham, Max King, or any other. The hope I see is the freedom granted us in Christ Jesus -- the only true ministry, for all Scripture speaks of Him. I know its not always the men who make themselves larger than they ought, but often the people who admire them nevertheless this is dangerous.

Roderick

JayGary's picture

Joel Barker rightly claims that when the paradigm changes, everything changes. What good is a Swiss watch, when more accurate and less costly Japanese digital watches came out? Remember that after Jesus changed the paradigm, and everyone in his day had to play catch up. Most declined to embrace the "metanoia" and could only fuss like children that Jesus was not playing with them.

Note how Jesus testifies of this in Luke 7:31-32: "To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like? They are like children who sit in the market place and call to one another, and they say, "We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not weep.'"

The Transmillennial(r) view is bringing a paradigm change to heart of the fulfilled view. The essence of this shift is seeing that God brought us into his house by transforming the covenant, from old to new. Those who want to stay in the transition period, and perpetuate a first-fruits body, unrelated to the whole harvest, would not be embracing that full transformation into the presence of God.

In that "Let's Build the Next House" essay, I shared how trans-modern explorers, rather than pre-modern settlers, would likely have greater capacity to build the next house of faith for the third millennium. Tim King is coming out with a journal article in LPJ in two weeks on the difference between "idealist" and "realist" hermeneutics, that differentiates clearly between the preterit and Transmillennial view of the Scriptures and culture today. The watershed is epistemology, not who founded this or that.

When you or I or anybody refers to Max King or any other New Testament scholar, such as C.H. Dodd, Albert Schweitzer, or Oscar Cullman, we are merely using shorthand to refer to a school of thought. Max King represents the 20th century shift from consequent to covenant eschatology. The shift he effected in the Christian worldview was at the macro-paradigm level. Others may have brought shifts in covenant eschatology at the meso or mini-level of fulfilled prophecy. I take 1 Cor 3 into stride in talking about these things, as you mentioned, we follow no one but Christ and him crucified.

The principle of the Transmillennial view is not to negate previous articulations, but to transcend and include them. In this way, genuine progress in theology can emerge, by reframing previous assumed unsolvable problems and showing how Scripture has solved them, based on eschatological fulfillment.

I see some of the reservations in this thread about the Transmillennial view as being quite natural. None of us want to be challenged to think outside the box or our preset comfort zones. It is hard for old dogs to learn new tricks. But Jesus challenges all those in training for the kingdom to bring forth both old and new treasures from their storehouse (Matt 13:52).
--Jay Gary, associate, http://www.presence.tv

Jay Gary, Helping Faith Communities Cultivate Foresight, http://www.jaygary.com

davo's picture

Roderick, book reviews aside, I think we should all feel free enough to write as we are inclined [as you did] without needing to worry whether someone's precious passions or pet theories are likely to be ruffled. We're all adult enough [or should be] to get the "gist" of what's being said - I think anyway.

davo

mrfullpreterist's picture

Roderick,
I am a little surprised you are so quick to go along with the notion of "founder." What I want to know is if preterism is one of the elements of Biblical truth. Meaning is the fact that the second coming is a past event a truth or not?
I do not know Max or Tim or their work at all so I cannot speak about what they have done to help or hurt the truth that is preterism. And I respect any man who has fought for this truth.

That being said, there is but one founder for truth. Truth is not something we theorize and formulate and put down for others to learn. Truth is something that was always there to be revealed by the author of truth alone.

I have not formulated my ideas and theology from this writing by this man or that writing by that man, yet I still seem to fall in line with many other preterists. This is because preterism is a mystery revealed. A veil lifeted. It is being able to read scripture without needing someone to interpret it for me. No man founded this. NO MAN, no matter how many people he introduced to this free thought of reading what is there with unveiled eyes, FOUNDED PRETERISM.

It is our rediculous human emotion, charector, etc.. etc.. that INSISTS on making one man a leader for us all or the pioneer of us all that keeps making us enslave ourselves!!! Luthor is the founder of protestant Christianity so I will be "lutheran." Calvin had some neat ideas so I am "calvinist."

I am sorry but I am sick and tired of it all. For people who can read black and white better than they could with dispensational blinders, many still miss the rebuke by Paul to not say we are of "Apollos, Cephas......."

Max and TIm, in all sicerity, Christ I am sure appreciates your fight for truth as do all preterists, but I rebuke any man who would call himself or another the FOUNDER of ANY truth held in scripture. There is but one "founder" of that.

God Bless,
Nate

mrFOOLpreterist FKA as mrfullpreterist

Still searching to understand the Truth.

Virgil's picture

Nate, I don't think that Tim or Max ever appointed themselves as "founders" of modern Preterism... If there any evidence of that, I would like to see it :)

Roderick's picture

Brother Nate,

I take your admonition as given, but please bear in mind that I constantly put quotes around the words founding and founder in my article. I no more believe anyone founds or finds truth than you do. As a matter of fact it is truth that finds them if God so pleases.
In my article, about the back cover (which I could have simply not said a thing about) I was merely trying to come to terms over the verbage used. If Tim King really believes his dad founded the fulfilled Bible prophecy perspective then I would really have a problem, but I think he is simply using the word founded as we loosely do with the examples I pointed out.

Brother, I certainly share your hesitation over following any founder other than Christ. I hope you know me well enough from what I've written in the past and the situation over church government in which I'm still in discussion.

Roderick

Virgil's picture

That is why I was a little surprised because I am familiar with your writings. Thanks for the clarifications.

That is my #1 topic of passion. I love my freedom!

God Bless
Nate

Sam's picture

Roderick,

Having been a long time friend (and defender) of Tim and Max, I do have concerns about creating yet another division between "preterists" and "transmillennialists." These are labels, pure and simple. One is not any better than the other. Transmillennialism is simply preterism with a different angle on issues. The basis of transmillennialism is that prophecy is fulfilled (preterism). The word was not "coined" by Presbyterians in the 90's. Farrar uses the term in the 1800's to describe those that believe that prophecy "was fulfilled by and large in A.D. 70." I approach my understanding of Transmillennialism like I do Ed's rapture view, IBD, IBN, or whatever else. Unfortunately, transmillennialism is appearing more and more to me to have no central defining motif other than a vague notion of transforming the world based on the greatest story ever told. That's what Christians in general have been trying to do in the last 2,000 years under different models. Nothing new there. The unique aspect of TR is that it appears to be far more universal in scope than any of the other Preterist views. The Preterist views are still grounded in what many criticize as simply "old baggage." They have not proven this to be the case. Dialogue, which is what you call for, is MANDATORY. When Tim says to me that he is not a universalist, then another TR tells me that "everyone is saved", then that leads me to wonder what is exactly being said. Transmillennialism has not solved problems that need solving before trying to fix everything. Old problems like freewill, justification, things that us ordinary folk still like to talk about. Yet, I have not seen any indication that TR advocates intend on doing this. In terms of sovereignty, all that I get is "read an Open Theist book" (I have). So, I have to be an Open Theist now? Yet, TR will say, "the only thing different about our view is that you are not required to believe it." Great. Then what's the big deal?

Getting Restless in Florida,

Samuel M. Frost

Roderick's picture

Sam,

I too would like to see more interaction between these "camps". I think Virgil is correct in pointing out that its is more than a label. How often do we hear that the denominational "labels" are simply labels but by their disunity we can see that the labels are more than that.

There seems to be an inevitible showdown brewing and some of it can be seen from the recent article by Marcus Booker on Covenant Grace. Don't get me wrong, these things need to be discussed and worked out among us, but just like the wishful thinking of the Baptist denominations conceding to infant baptism (or visa-versa), it is highly unlikely that either camp will concede any points. Rather, some will be drawn one way or another while other drop out altogether. Somehow I want to stand in the gap. Not so I can be a fence sitter, but so that I can hold the door open for continued dialogue.

Virgil's picture

Sam - the problem is that the two sides will not agree with the fact that Preterism and Transmillennialsm are just "labels". I had someone contacting me here saying he no longer wants to be involved with Planet Preterist because he is now a Transmillennialist and sees too many incompatibilities with what we are doing here. Now THAT was a dagger through my heart...

Roderick's picture

For those who know me, they know I tend to say the things and ask the questions others are thinking -- whether that is wise or not can be debated. With that preface, I'd like to point out that the "Preterist" Movement and the "Prensence" Movement appear to be feuding step-siblings. Though I did not mention this in my initial review there is a section in the book titled, "Preterism is History" (pg 90). In this section Tim King discusses how Max King never used the term "Preterism" to describe his eschatological perspective. He goes on to say that it was the Reformed Presbyertians of `90s that began using this term. Tim King points out that the moniker, Preterism has been assumed negative connotations and continues to be broken down in sub-sets like; partial, full, hyper, IBD & IBN.

King concludes his brief assessment by saying; ”I suppose the final straw for me was when the president of the International Preterist Association [Ed Stevens] took the view that the first-century church was literally raptured off the face of the earth…”

I guess what I’m trying to say here is that major proponents of Preterism & the proponents of the Presence Movement need to meet and hammer out some differences and commonalities.

Virgil's picture

I guess the problem is that Ed is being viewed as "the head" of preterism. I am not sure that's the case anymore...the preterist movement has grown beyond whatever Ed and the early preterists in the 1900's envisioned. And truthfully, the strength of preterism is in the fact that it is a loose system that permeates denominational lines, organizations, ministries and groups of believers.

It will also be soon when the younger generation, those in their 20s, or our children will take the helm and maybe head preterism into new waters. This cannot happen with division and antagonism.

artmel's picture

You make some fine observations, Roderick. Max King is a Christian gentleman who paved the way for many of us. His courage and faithfulness to what he sees in the word is unquestionable.
All preterism is in his debt.
Arthur Melanson

That\'s a great article by Walt Hibbard. \'Mello\' certainly clarifies our preterist positions. Modern translators are unduly limited by their eschatology.
Arthur Melanson

sixstringfunk's picture

Hi Roderick, I couldn't agree with you more. This book really is a good read. I am proud to also to be apart of Tim's Ministry. I truely believe that his vision for the future is something that will profit not only the Transmillinnial view but all aspects of Preterism. Speaking of his father Max, I have the greatest respect for this man who under extreme persecution from those whom he had associated with for many years still was able to keep his focus and stand firm on the truth.

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