You are hereFuturist Big Mistake about 1948

Futurist Big Mistake about 1948

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By John - Posted on 03 June 2004

The Old Testament prophet prophesied about Israel being restored after they came out of Babylon 70 years after 586 B.C. not 2000 AD and counting as futurist say. This proves that the Preterist view is the only view that makes sense. Daniel’s along with John’s vision completed all scripture for the end of the world of the Old Covenant age.All of these OT Prophets lived before the Babylonians destroyed the Jerusalem Temple in 586 B.C.. Judah's leading citizens were exiled to Babylonia far to the northeast, leaving only a remnant in the country. The Babylonian exile was one of the great crises in Israel's history. People questioned how God could permit the brutal destruction of Jerusalem and the loss of Israel's homeland. Nevertheless, the prophet Ezekiel told the exiles that even though Israel seemed as lifeless as a field of dry bones, God would revitalize the people and take them home again (Ezekiel 37:1-14).

A turning point came when Cyrus, king of Persia, conquered Babylonia. In 538 B.C., Cyrus declared that the exiles, now known as Judeans or Jews, could return to their country. Some of the exiles chose to remain in Babylonia, but others returned and began the slow task of reconstruction. Urged on by prophets such as Haggai and Zechariah, whose writings appear in the Old Testament, the people eventually established a new temple and rebuilt Jerusalem. The scribes Ezra and Nehemiah called for renewed commitment to the laws and traditions of Israel that were being assembled into the form in which we now have them in the Pentateuch (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy). Together, the temple and the law became the two institutions that gave the people their distinct identity while living under Persian domination.

A significant change began when Alexander the Great swept down from Macedonia and Greece to conquer Palestine in 330 B.C. Alexander envisioned a grand world city in which people would not belong primarily to a given tribe or local community, but to the Greek Empire. The new vision of one world city differed significantly from the conviction that Israel was God's chosen people. Some of the Jewish people liked the new vision and began adopting Greek customs, but others rebelled and insisted that to do so would be to commit apostasy. The governor of that region tried to suppress the revolt by forbidding observance of Israel's law and by turning the Jerusalem temple into a shrine that he dedicated to Zeus in 167 B.C. A group of Jews led by Judah Maccabee successfully recaptured the temple and purified it in 164 B.C. Soon they regained control of the country and set up their own government, the first independent government since Jerusalem had been conquered by the Babylonians four hundred years earlier.

This Jewish kingdom endured for a century. In 63 B.C. a Roman general conquered Jerusalem and brought Jewish independence to an end. The Romans eventually designated a man named Herod to rule Palestine. An ambitious and masterful politician, Herod accommodated devout Jews by transforming the modest Jerusalem temple that had been rebuilt after the exile into an imposing structure of gleaming white limestone adorned with gold. At the same time he built cities named for Caesar Augustus that contained stadiums, theaters, and temples to the emperor.

Jeremiah

Jer 1-25 recounts Jeremiah's prophetic words and actions. Jeremiah prophesied in and around Jerusalem before the city fell in 587 BC. While he is still a young man, God calls Jeremiah to prophesy. Jeremiah condemns those who trust the Temple to deliver them from judgment against their sins (7:1-15). Jeremiah compares God's dealings with his people to a potter molding the clay. After smashing a jar to portend destruction, he is arrested (18:1--20:6). Poignant laments appear in this section (e.g., 20:7-12).

Jer 26-45 contain memoirs of Jeremiah's life. The scribe Baruch reads Jeremiah's prophecies in the Temple, but the king burns the scroll. Later Jeremiah wears a yoke on his neck to show people they should submit to Babylon. Eventually he is arrested. When the Babylonians capture Jerusalem, Jeremiah remains in Judah for a time before being taken to Egypt.

Jer 46-51 concludes with oracles against foreign nations and another account of the fall of Jerusalem.

Isaiah

Isa 1-39 contains oracles by Isaiah and narratives about his life. Isaiah lived in and around Jerusalem during the late seventh century BC, when the Assyrians were conquering the northern part of the country. The first part of the book summarizes the prophet's message (Isa 1-5). He condemns Israel's injustice and misguided trust in ritual, and calls the people to repent. He compares the sins of Judah to fine vineyard producing only wild grapes. Isaiah is called by God through a vision of the heavenly throne room. He tells King Ahaz not to fear pressure from Israel and Syria for they will fall to the Assyrians (Isa 6-8). Isaiah promises that God will raise up a righteous king and judge the nations that oppose Israel (Isa 9-35). God delivers Jerusalem from the Assyrians and heals King Hezekiah of an illness, although Hezekiah's naive trust in the Babylonians portended the future fall of Jerusalem.

Isaiah 40-66 offers encouragement to those living at the end of the exile. Those who have gone into exile can take comfort (40:1) for their time of servitude will end when the Persian king Cyrus conquers the nations (45:1). God is Lord over all.

Zechariah

Post-exilic prophecies concerning the restoration of Israel, a triumphant king humbly riding a donkey, and God's final victory.

God's anointed leaders are like
two olive trees
(Zech 4:11-14)

Zechariah prophesied in Jerusalem about 520-518 BC, not long after some Jews had returned from exile in Babylon. He was a contemporary of Haggai.

Zech 1-8 consists of visions of Jerusalem's restoration. A vision of a divine horeseman announces that God will unsettle the nations and restore Jerusalem. Another vision first depicted Joshua the high priest dressed in filthy clothing, which represented Israel's guilt. But Joshua was then given fine clothing, symbolizing restoration. According to Zechariah, God would send a Davidic servant known as the "Branch," who would usher peace and prosperity so that people would invite each other to sit under their vines and fig trees. The visions depicted the community's leaders, Joshua the priest and Zerubbabel the governor, as olive trees, since they were the anointed of the Lord.

Zech 9-14 contains oracles about the coming day of the Lord's victory. These oracles differ in tone and content from the visions. They announce the coming of God the warrior and a king who will bring peace. Faithless leaders among the people are rebuked. The book culminates with an oracle concerning the day when the Lord will triumph over Israel's adversaries, and all who remain will worship God in Jerusalem.

Ezekiel

Ezek 1-32 contains warnings of judgment. Ezekiel is a priest who is among those taken into exile in 597 BC, a decade before the Babylonians destroy Jerusalem. His prophecies are given from Babylonia. The first part of the book contains oracles and actions of Ezekiel from his call in 593 BC until the fall of Jerusalem in 587. Ezekiel begins to prophesy after a vision in which he saw God's throne chariot and was given a scroll to eat (Ezek 1-3). He has visions of idolatrous worship in the Temple and of God's glory departing from Jerusalem (Ezek 8-11). He calls people to turn from sin. When his wife dies he bears it silently, as the people will have to bear the loss of Jerusalem.

Ezek 33-45 contains promises of restoration. After the fall of Jerusalem in 587 BC, the prophet promises that God will shepherd his people (Ezek 34) and restore them, like dry bones coming back to life (Ezek 37). A vision of a restored city and sanctuary concludes the book.

Hosea

Hosea prophesied in the northern kingdom of Israel in the eight century BC. He was a contemporary of Amos.

God tells Hosea to marry a prostitute to dramatize how Israel has become faithless by worshiping other gods. Their children are named "Jezreel" (which was a battlefield), "Not Pitied," and "Not my people" to show how God will judge Israel. Yet there is hope that God will restore the people, so that "Jezreel" will become a sown field and the other children will be called "Pitied" and "My People" (Hos 1-3). Oracles of judgment and hope appear throughout the remainder of the book.

Micah

Book of a southern prophet which foretells the fall of Jerusalem and calls the people to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with God.

Do justice, love kindness, walk humbly with God
(Mic 6:6)

Micah prophesied in the southern kingdom of Judah. He lived in the late eighth century BC when the Assyrians were conquering the northern kingdom. He was a contemporary of Isaiah.

Micah declares that God will judge Samaria and Jerusalem because of unjust social practices, false teachers, and corrupt leaders. Yet he also offers hope that God will preserve a remnant of the people. Like Isaiah, Micah envisioned a time when people would beat their swords into plowshares. In the new era of peace, people would be able to sit under their own vines and fig trees without fear. One oracle promises that from Bethlehem will come a future ruler of Israel. The prophet denounces dishonesty and violence. God does not seek burnt offerings for sins, but that people do justice, love kindness, and walk humbly with God (6:6-8). Micah concludes with a vision of restoration.

Mic 6:6 - To do justice

Haggai

Short prophetic book urging those who returned from exile to rebuild the Temple.

The temple was in ruins-Haggai
urged rebuilding

Haggai prophesied in Jerusalem about 520-515 BC, not long after some Jews had returned from exile in Babylon. He was a contemporary of Zechariah.

Haggai chides the people for allowing the Temple to remain in ruins while they themselves live in paneled houses. He warns that prosperity will not return until the Temple has been rebuilt (Hag 1). Urging the governor and high priest to pursue the work, Haggai declares that God will shake the heavens and earth, bringing the wealth of the nations to Jerusalem. The new Temple will be more splendid than the old one.

Malachi

A short prophetic book which condemns corrupt priests and promises that Elijah will return before the great day of the LORD.

The Lord's messenger is like a refiner's fire
(Mal 3:2)

Malachi prophesied in Jerusalem, probably in the fifth century BC.

Malachi first tells of God's love for Israel, then condemns the priests who have been unfaithful in their service and the people who have been unfaithful in marriage (Mal 1-2). The prophet announces that God will send a messenger to purify the people. God promises to receive those who repent and to spare those who serve him. Elijah is the one whom God will send to reconcile parents and children before the day of the Lord (4:5-6). The New Testament applies this promise to John the Baptist (Luke 1:17).

Mal 4:5-6 - Coming of Elijah

Events
Abraham and Sarah
2000-1700 B.C.
Israel's Exodus from Egypt
1275 B.C.
Reign of David Begins
1000 B.C.
Kingdom Divides into North and South
922 B.C.
Fall of Northern Kingdom
722 B.C.
Fall of Southern Kingdom
587 B.C.
Some exiles return from Babylonia
539 B.C.
Birth of Jesus
5 B.C.
Jesus' death and resurrection
A.D. 30

Is this a missing link in favor for Preterism? I've never read anything about it before. For the last month or so something in my mind keep coming back about all the scriptures from the old prophets futurist were throwing at me at another forum, and I thought that what they meant for Israel in 1948 was really the temple restored just after Israel came out of Babylon. As you have noticed most of these OT Prophets lived either before the Babylonian captivity, during or short after. Keep in mind that Daniel was there at the time and prophecy and vision was sealed up unto the time of end when John saw it open again, and then the end came in 70 AD., therefore no more prophecy about any future thing after 70 AD. in the scripture. Not to say that God will not reveal future things because I believe He does through the Holy Spirit.

Herod’s Temple being twice the size as Solomon’s Temple, was a fulfillment of the latter house being greater then the former house.

Haggai 2:9
"The glory of this latter temple shall be greater than the former,' says the LORD of hosts. "And in this place I will give peace,' says the LORD of hosts."

It was this place that Jesus came and brought peace through His blood.

What happened in 1948 with Israel becoming a nation was most likely Christian futurist World leaders in our time believing that scripture must still be fulfilled. This just goes to show man can make things happen according to what they believe. They could make everything according to their view of end-times happen

The way I see it. it is that the futurist are responsible for what happens over in Israel today if Israel becomes a Nuclear wasteland. We still have to lot of work to do before it is to late but just think what would happen if Christianity embraced full Preterism.

Virgil's picture

'The way I see it. it is that the futurist are responsible for what happens over in Israel today if Israel becomes a Nuclear wasteland.'

It's a lot more accurate to blame the British. Besides, the going definition around here for 'futurist' is any creed-confessing othodox chrisitian. The church catholic was non-supportive of the Bristish move to turn over Palastine to Zionists. I suppose you could blame so-called christian fringe groups - there was plenty of them exerting pressure on their governments in the name of God.

Immanuel's picture

Zorro,
I see your point but futurist fuel this end-time maddness. BTW, I was once a futurist but seeking the truth lead me to be a full Preterist.

Hebrews 9:8
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

1Cor.15
21 For since by man came death, by Man also [came] the resurrection of the dead.

JL's picture

The Church's historic doctrine of Christ's Imminent Return is entirely preterist - the doctrine is an impossibility if Matt 24:34 were not already fulfilled.

So one must be careful how one defines a 'futurist'. The core beliefs (the engine driving it) of dispensationalism has nothing to do with eschatology. Rather, it starts with a fundamental destruction of Christ's Church by deeming it a temporary building of the saints - a so-called 'dispensation' to be flattened one day. i.e. a powerless glee-club that can safely be circumvented and even vilified. Christ said they will never prevail.

To define a 'futurist', you need to start with that essential relationship. Many here hold to that dispensational relationship and so remain dispensationalists in their core thinking. They are doomed to failure by Christ's own words, but laugh at his warning - let them.

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

zerubbabel's picture

The hope of Christ's Imminent Return is indeed the historic doctrine of the Church. However it does not follow that "the doctrine is an impossibility if Matt. 24:34 were not already fulfilled."

You have no idea what you're talking about in your defintion of a futurist (dispensationalism). What do you mean "it starts with a fundamental destruction of Christ's Church"..."deeming it a temporary building"... "to be flattened one day"...and "a powerless glee club", etc.?
What nonsensical rhetoric is this! Dispensationalists believe the Church to be an eternal building just as much as any "Covenant" Christian. What Dispensationalist has ever taught that the Church will be "flattened one day?" You made that up! The true Church (composed of believers found among many groups and denominations) will certainly be preserved according to our Lord's promise. But false Christendom will indeed be destroyed one day and if you don't know the difference by looking at the world around you, I can't do much to help you.

zerubbabel's picture

"The hope of Christ's Imminent Return is indeed the historic doctrine of the Church. However it does not follow that "the doctrine is an impossibility if Matt. 24:34 were not already fulfilled."

Yes, it does follow. Christ cannot return at any moment if Matt 24:34 still needs to be fulfilled. And because the WAY Matt 24:34 was fulfilled involves a long list events and 'signs' leading up to the destruction of the Temple (a temple is neccessary). Dispensationalism awaits the antichrist, orthodox preterism awaits only Christ, since the antichrist was long ago taken out of the way.

Both Dispensationalists and Full-Preterists strive to keep Christ safely locked away in heaven. Neither can confess the historic and orthodox doctrine of Christ's Imminent Return, without changing the historic and obvious meaning of the word. In that respect, both sects are of the same feather.

Dispensationalism believes the church is temporary entity - a dispensation that has an end. So figuratively speaking, the church is 'flattened' into a non-entity at it's dispensational end. I didn't make that up.

zerubbabel's picture

 Pretty shabby presentation of the prophetic scriptures. As usual this preterist writer simply gives broad interpretations of the eschatological passages of O.T scripture. An exegesis of the details would be impossible for this writer because they paint a very different picture from what existed at any time in past history. Then we have the usual slight-of-hand claiming prophecy ended in A.D. 70. This is a reference to Daniel’s prophecy of the 70 weeks. And just how does he get to A.D. 70 from Daniel’s prophecy of the 70 weeks? Daniel’s prophecy of the 70 Weeks deals a death blow to preterism. No matter how hard they try, preterists cannot make the math work out! Specifically, they cannot demonstrate how the 490 years gets them to A.D.70! It doesn’t matter where you start the time line, everyone agrees that the Lord’s death and the destruction of the city (Jerusalem) occurs after the 69th week. Preterists say they both occurred in the 70th week. But these two events occurred nearly 40 years apart! Thus they must either admit a gap in the middle of the week (which they say cannot be) or else cram 40 years into seven! Neither option will do. Therefore preterism is clearly a false theory. Incidentally, every other non-dispensational view has this same insurmountable problem. The dispensational view sees a divinely appointed gap or postponement between the 69th and 70th weeks. They gladly admit it, and provide sound explanations for it. But what is most absurd of all is the notion that “Christian futurist World leaders” made Israel become a nation in 1948! What’s this guy been smoking? What Christian futurist world leaders is he talking about?!!! And then the statement about futurists being responsible if Israel becomes a nuclear wasteland is not even worthy of a response! Finally, I don’t know what the point was about a “missing link” but there’s definitely something missing in this preterist line of reasoning!

JRP's picture

'The dispensational view sees a divinely appointed gap ...'

Holy gap, man! What you say was 'divinely appointed' was the work of that nut-case, Darby, not God. The Darbyites exerted their pressure on the British goverment to oust both Christian and Moslem Palestinians from their land for the love of a gap, not God. The only thing 'Left Behind' is the misery that stupid decision has caused that region.

But boldness without truth will never make a Christian confessor: and if a man injures himself for the love of error, he is not a martyr but a suicide. William A. Jones

zerubbabel's picture

There's nothing "holy" about the gap, and your characterization of it as such doesn't help you. You conveniently avoid answering the question of how you get to A.D.70 (the destruction of the city) without a "gap" somewhere!

Your adhominem attack on Darby ("nut-case") reminds me of a Romanist who once wrote me saying that Martin Luther was "neurotic". All she knew about him was what others had told her and she had run out of arguments against me.

As for the "Darbyites" in the 1940s, their numbers and influence were nothing compared to that of the Church of England. But what I find amazing is that even if you could show such a link (which is far-fetched to say the least) you seem to be oblivious to to the soveriegn rule of God in the affairs of men. It is is God who sets up kings and puts down kings using whoever and whatever He wants. It seems you're just too uncomfortable with the way the world is shaping up. As one writer put it, "The creation of the nation of Israel in 1948 threw a wrench in the Amillennialist scheme."

By the way, I've never read any of the "Left Behind" books because I don't care for Christian fiction personally.

Immanuel's picture

There is one Preterist who believes in a gap. This is what he wrote

Why I Believe In A Gap

Within the preterist camp there is a debate about whether or not the 70th week in Daniel 9 had a gap. Some are automatically hesitant to believe in a gap sighting dispensationalist theology as a good reason to throw it out. Another defense against such is the thought that God’s timelines never had gaps before. I believe the last point depends on your point of view concerning the deliverance of the Jews from Egypt to the promised land. The first point is no reason to discard scriptural argumentation.

Below I give my reasons for the defense of a 40 year gap between the Messiah being cut off and the completion of the 70th week.

Daniel 9:24 "Seventy weeks F29 are determined {or decreed} For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of F30 sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.

70 weeks are decreed (they were NOW being decreed to Daniel by Gabriel) to complete 6 things. 6 things needed to be COMPLETED within the 70 weeks. It was not these 6 things that were to be “decreed” within the 70 weeks, it was the 70 weeks of years that it would take to accomplish these which were NOW being decreed. There is a huge difference.

This brings us to a problem within the preterist camp. We are called “consistent” preterists, however we are forced to do the same song and dance when confronted with a “gapless” 70 weeks theory. I find that it is impossible to declare these 6 things completed before AD 70 and the following is why. I only need to find 1 of the 6 that was not fulfilled until AD 70 but I will quickly address them all. I find this a simple issue and will only address it in depth if in depth rebuttal is presented.

1. To Finish the Transgression

Christ gave the perfect condemnation of the 1st century Jews who had rejected Him in Matthew 23. Some may point to this as proof text, since Christ was declaring to them the woes at that time, that the transgression was “finished” at THAT time. I believe the opposite. The transgression was not “finished” until the Jews had themselves fulfilled the transgressions that Christ prophesied they would do.

Matt 23:29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.' 31 Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate;

Only after Christ declared that they would kill and scourge the “prophets, wise men, and scribes” that He was sending them did He say they would be the generation that He would take His vengeance against. Not just for those “prophets, wise men, and scribes,” but all the way back to Abel. Again, Christ only declared them the vessels of His wrath for “all the righteous blood shed on the earth” after He prophesied their remaining and FUTURE transgressions.

Why?

Because that is when they would “finish the transgression.” Proving them to be the hypocrites He had claimed. Because the transgression would only be finished when that generation, the one in front of Him, killed those He would send to them even after they “adorned the tombs” and said “if we had lived in the days of our fathers.”

They first had to prove Christ true that they were indeed the “sons of those who murdered the prophets.”

They had to FINISH THE TRANSGRESSION.

2. To Make and End of Sins

Heb 9:28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
This verse could work both ways. I can give it up to the other side of the argument if they can show me one thing. Did Christ having set aside sin for himself accomplish this?

I believe that the 6 things needed to be accomplished for “your people and your holy city.” Now we could get into who “your people” are (Jews or Christians as a whole) and what “holy city” it is referring to (Jerusalem or New Jerusalem) but I believe that argument is beside the point. I believe that sin was not taken away from the believer until AD 70. Hence #2 not accomplished until the consummation. Most full-preterists believe this and I hope the point is not contested. But if it is it needs to be done on the realm of Christ accomplishing it HIMSELF to qualify it for completion.
3. To Make Reconciliation for Iniquity

This is similar to the above #2 and similar points can be made. Christ returned showing that His sacrifice was approved. Christ being our High Priest forever. He made reconciliation so I can give this point to the other side as Cross accomplished.

4. To Bring in Everlasting Righteousness

This I will not give up. I believe in salvation only after AD 70 and I believe everlasting righteousness “for your people and your holy city” only in the New Heavens and New Earth. The New Jerusalem to be specific.

5. To Seal Up Vision and Prophecy

Acts 2:15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.
There is nothing to believe in Daniel that prophecy and vision is any different than what is mentioned by Peter quoting Joel. Can someone go back to Joel and show he saw vision and prophecy as any different that Daniel?

I will add my opinion to this. What they did then, as prophesied by Joel, what John did then as he witnessed the “Revelation,” to say that it was new and different that what Daniel spoke of, is to leave the door open for it today. I do not, I CANNOT believe God deals with us the way He did in the transition age or the Old Testament age. If it is CONSUMATED, then it is so. There is no longer a need for vision and prophecy today. Nor could we trust it in todays world. If there is no need for it today, then why did it’s end in AD 70 (even Joel TYPE of it) not fulfill the 5th accomplishment of the 70 weeks?

1 Cor 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

Speaking of prophecy!

Here is the word used for prophecy:
profhteuvw

from (4396)

Transliterated Word

TDNT Entry

Propheteuo

6:781,952

Phonetic Spelling

Parts of Speech

prof-ate-yoo'-o

Verb

Definition

1. to prophesy, to be a prophet, speak forth by divine inspirations, to predict

a. to prophesy
b. with the idea of foretelling future events pertaining esp. to the kingdom of God
c. to utter forth, declare, a thing which can only be known by divine revelation
d. to break forth under sudden impulse in lofty discourse or praise of the divine counsels

1. under like prompting, to teach, refute, reprove, admonish, comfort others

b. to act as a prophet, discharge the prophetic office

There is no real reason to believe Daniel, Joel and Paul are speaking about different types of prophecy.

How many different types of “vision” are there? We are really causing havoc when we try to twist these to prove a gapless theory. Because twisting is what we must do to get there.
6. And to Anoint the Most Holy.

This can be debated both ways but one verse does not allow me to believe it could be accomplished before AD 70. However there is enough doubt to sway me to the other side. Christ’s baptism is a possibility however I believe since these 6 things are for the people and the city, I believe it is speaking of something else as follows.

Heb 9:8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. 9 It was symbolic for the present time…

Summary

I believe it is not possible for all the events of Daniel 9:24 to be accomplished before AD 70 and therefore, require a gap theory. I still do not find this at all a problem. God gave a 40 year gap to the Israelites in the wilderness due to their unbelief and wickedness. He did the same here.

Approaching the 70 weeks with a bias against a gap is a mistake. Whenever we do this in any situation will lead us to the truth we WANT to believe. As all preterists had to do to become preterists, we must approach this issue open. With no intent to prove anything.

May the Lord Bless and Keep You

Nate

Hebrews 9:8
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

1Cor.15
21 For since by man came death, by Man also [came] the resurrection of the dead.

zerubbabel's picture

Thank You. I do not understand everything Nate wrote as that would require a lengthy analysis. While I'm sure we don't agree as to the nature, length, and purpose of a gap, I appreciate his candid admission of one and the Christian spirit in his presentation. The question is, How many preterists believe that way?

zerubbabel's picture

Of course, the fundamental problem with the gap is that Gabriel, being an angel, did not know when Christ would return - the decree being spoken of is the same decree spoken of by Christ - only His Father knows the date of His return. There is no count-down, no signs to determine a count-down. The 70th week was the desolation. The fact that that desolation continues with a trampling is not an indication of a gap but of the complete closure (for all time) of that 70th week.

Immanuel's picture

I must admit I had problems with the gap theory until Zorro pointed out no man knew the hour or day. But does that mean the year also?

Hebrews 9:8
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

1Cor.15
21 For since by man came death, by Man also [came] the resurrection of the dead.

Immanuel's picture

The obvious meaning of Christ's words is that no one knows when he will return except God the Father. Christ did not intend to leave the door open for a buffoon who says he knows the week or month or year of his return, though some have gone through that door in an attempt to discredit his words.

Hebrews 9:8
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

1Cor.15
21 For since by man came death, by Man also [came] the resurrection of the dead.

Immanuel's picture

I believe the only ones that had any kind of clue as to when Jesus would come were the Christians around 70 AD. They knew when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by the Roman armies the it was time to leave. They did not know the hour or day but they knew the season.

Hebrews 9:8
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

1Cor.15
21 For since by man came death, by Man also [came] the resurrection of the dead.

jhb's picture

Matthew 24:36, "No one knows about that DAY OR HOUR, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Compared with Revelation 9:15, "And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very HOUR AND DAY and MONTH AND YEAR were released to kill a third of mankind."

One point to be observed is that there are 24 time zones. Matthew 24:36's specific language took this fact (unknown to Jesus' contemporary audience) into account. No man could, or can, pin His coming down to any one hour of any given day!

A second point is that Revelation 9:15's terminology, when compared to Matthew 24:36's, implies that the "MONTH AND YEAR" could possibly be known. Otherwise, Jesus would have said, "No one knows about that very HOUR AND DAY and MONTH AND YEAR, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

We must not put these additional words into Jesus' mouth.

jhb

jhb's picture

I agree that Daniel's 70 weeks of 490 years includes a gap--in fact two gaps: (1) An exact three years during Antioches Epiphanes' desecration of Jerusalem's Temple from December 167 BC - December 164 BC and (2) The gap between Christ's crucifixion in April AD 33 and Autumn of AD 69 when general Titus of Rome was given command over the Judean campaign by his father, Vespasian, newly crowned emperor of Rome. This final half of Daniel's 70th week ended at Masada, Passover AD 73 (the 40th anniversary of Calvary and the end of the seven-year "Great Revolt" against Rome).

Further, Daniel's 70 weeks begins with a 7-week 49 year Jubilee cycle! Tracing the Jubilee cycles back to the beginning of Genesis we discover that they began at the death of Adam, in his 930th year, symbolizing liberty at the death of the old man in Adam!

Tracing the 49 year and 490 year cycles through the Scriptures we discover that there were major gaps in four consecutive 490 year periods:

(1) 490 OF THE PROPHETS: Abraham to the Mosaic Exodus was a 490 year period discounting the fifteen years between Hagar's conception of Ishmael by Abraham and the birth of Isaac by Sarah.

(2) 490 OF THE JUDGES: The Exodus to the Dedication of Solomon's Temple was a 490 year period discounting the 110+ years of captivity during the time of the Judges.

(3) 490 OF THE KINGS: Solomon's Temple to the Return of Ezra was a 490 year period discounting 58 1/2 years of the seventy year Babylonian captivity (the deduct began when the King of Judah was exiled to Babylon--11 1/2 years into the Captivity).

(4) 490 OF THE PRIESTS: Ezra's return to Jerusalem in 458 BC till the end of first-century Judaism at Masada, Passover, AD 73. This included two aforementioned gaps.

In summary, gaps in the Jubilee Cycles of Scripture have been well documented by various Biblical chronologists. I have not read of any Preterists who have included this background and understanding of Jubilee cycles in their handling of Daniel's 70 weeks, which is most unusual given that Daniel's 70 weeks begins with a 7 week 49-year Jubilee cycle. Therefore, they argue about its starting date, when in fact there can be only one date, if the preceding five 490-year cycles have been properly connected end-to-end BEFORE tackling Daniel's 70 weeks (which is the sixth 490-year period).

Privately, I have documented the entire Biblical timeline as found in the Word, and have validated each segment from the chronology provided by the Scriptures.

I hope that this overview can aid in placing Daniel's 70 weeks within the greater context of Biblical time as revealed from the Scripture. Further, that gaps are not uncommon in the three 490-year cycles immediately preceding Daniel's.

Jim Button

jhb's picture

Daniel 9:24, "Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city..."

Zerubbabel states: "Everyone agrees that the Lord’s death and the destruction of the city (Jerusalem) occurs after the 69th week. Preterists say they both occurred in the 70th week...

Zerubbabel continues, "But these two events occurred nearly 40 years apart! Thus they must EITHER ADMIT A GAP IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WEEK (WHICH THEY SAY CANNOT BE) or else cram 40 years into seven! Neither option will do. Therefore preterism is clearly a false theory."

I'm a preterist and I "admit a gap in the middle of the [70th] week" [from AD 33 at Calvary to AD 69--my final 3 1/2 years extends Autumn AD 69 to Spring 73 at Masada, which is the 40th anniversary of Calvary and the end of the seven year "Great Revolt"].

Further, I admit an earlier gap in the 490 year 70 weeks, the exact three year desecration of the Temple in the days of Antioches Epiphanes (December 167 BC to December 164 BC).

Here is how my 490 years breaks down:

457 BC The beginning of the 490 years with decree
to Ezra the priest.

167 BC Antioches Epiphanes desecration
begins. Timeline suspended for three
years.

164 BC Antioches Epiphanes desecration ends.
Timeline begins again.

33 AD Christ Crucified on Calvary ends the
69 1/2 weeks

69 AD Final 1/2 week begins

73 AD Seventy weeks ends at Masada (40th
anniversary of Calvary and end of seven
year "Great Revolt" of Jews against Rome.

This scenario is logical and plausible, and does no violence to Daniel 9's prophecy.

Immanuel's picture

I've only been a FullPreterist for about three months and do not have all the answers. I was just wandering why does Daniel 9:24's seventy weeks have to end in 70 AD. I believed it ended when Stephen was stoned. I can see how Daniel 9 :27 had an ending in 70 AD.

Was not Daniel 9
24"Seventy weeks[1] are determined
        For your people and for your holy city,
        To finish the transgression,
        To make an end of[2] sins,
        To make reconciliation for iniquity,
        To bring in everlasting righteousness,
        To seal up vision and prophecy,
        And to anoint the Most Holy.
fulfilled at or before the cross therefore ending timed prophesy.

No one knew the hour or day Christ would have come in judgment in 70 AD except the Father therefore was out of timed prophesy. If a gap in the 70 weeks was to end in 70 AD then there should have been no 70 weeks.

Hebrews 9:8
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

1Cor.15
21 For since by man came death, by Man also [came] the resurrection of the dead.

jhb's picture

'No one knew the hour or day Christ would have come in judgment in 70 AD except the Father therefore was out of timed prophesy.'

So why insist that it was timed 'within that generation' unless that event of vengence was not the 'un-timed' decree of God's concerning Christ's final return? There are two events decribed by Daniel and two events described in Matt 24 & 25. That should be apparent to all.

Immanuel's picture

The only timing on the day of vengence was that it would happen to that generation.

Hebrews 9:8
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

1Cor.15
21 For since by man came death, by Man also [came] the resurrection of the dead.

jhb's picture

Correction:

I was at work during the former post.

Now at home, and in my study/library I realized that my start date, 457 BC, for Daniel 9's 70 weeks of 490 years was off.

The corrected date from the revised edition of the "Handbook of Biblical Chronology" by Jack Finegan, page 268, section 456, is as follows:

"It was by permission of Artaxerxes king of Persia that Ezra led a band of returning exiles from Babylonia to Jerusalem, leaving Babylonia on the first day of the first month, in the seventh year of the king (Ezra 7:1, 8-9). If the king was Artaxerxes I (464-424) the seventh year was 458/457, the departure was on April 8, 458, and the arrival was on August 4, 458, just four months of travel in all."

Hence, the corrected 70 weeks is as follows:

458 BC August = The beginning of the 490 years with decree to Ezra the priest from Artaxerxes I and Ezra's arrival in Jerusalem.

167 BC December = Antioches Epiphanes desecration of Jerusalem's Temple begins. Timeline suspended for exactly three
years. 291 1/3 years elapsed of 490.

164 BC December = Antioches Epiphanes desecration of the Jewish Temple ends with its rededication by Judas Maccabbees. Timeline begins again and runs uninterrupted for 191 2/3 years (totalling 483 elapsed years of the 490) till...

29 AD August/September = John the Baptist begins ministry "in the late summer or early autumn...of A.D. 29" (Finegan's "Handbook of Biblical Chronology," page 342, section 584), "in the fifteenth year of the reign of Emperor Tiberius" (Luke 3:1), the 2nd Caesar of Rome. The first Caesar, Augustus, died on August 19, AD 14 (Finegan's "Handbook of Biblical Chronology," pages 329-344). Hence, the 15th year = AD 29. This marks the beginning of Daniel's 70th week of seven years.

33 AD April = Christ Crucified on Calvary ends the 69 1/2 weeks of Daniel or 486 1/2 years. This date of crucifixion is confirmed in Finegan's "Handbook of Biblical Chronology," page 366-369.

69 AD Autumn = Final 1/2 week of 3 1/2 years begins with roman General Titus--his father Vespasian newly proclaimed as Emperor of Rome-- left in charge of the military operation against the Jews in Judaea. In AD 70 Jerusalem fell to his troops.

73 AD Passover = Seventy weeks of 490 years ends at Masada (40th anniversary of Calvary and end of seven year "Great Revolt" of Jews against Rome.

This scenario is logical and plausible, and does no violence to Daniel 9's prophecy.

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