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Covenantal Realization of the New Heavens and New Earth

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By Bible-Touchstone - Posted on 06 April 2008

Deuteronomy 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Covenantal Realization of the New Heavens and New Earth

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

1. God Promised the World Would Never End

Ephesians 3:20-21 is the source of the concept “world without end” as echoed in the confessional doxology “Gloria Patri”:
Ephesians 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.”
The emphatic αἰών αἰών (G 165, G 165) is an idiom to suggest a never ending world of ages. Sometimes the word “αἰών” is translated as “world” (KJV), and that can be confusing when the Bible speaks of the end of the age in the first century.

Ecclesiastes 1:4 clears up any confusion between the ages and physical world.
Ecclesiastes 1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

The Psalms agree:

119:90Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.
The Psalms make it clear that the earth will not be destroyed.
See Psalms 93 and:
96:10 Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.
Psalms 78:69 And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever.
104:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

Also God explicitly promised never to destroy the world (Genesis 8:21-22, 9:11-17) as He already did (Genesis 6:31) with the flood. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world.

2. Heaven and earth is legal cant for the covenant as in Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deuteronomy 31:28 Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.
Get familiar with the punitory curses of Deuteronomy, and then see how Jeremiah 51:48 records fulfillment using this literary type theme.
Psalms 76:8 Thou didst cause judgment to be heard from heaven; the earth feared, and was still, 9When God arose to judgment, to save all the meek of the earth. Selah.

They served as witnesses to the covenant between God and Israel (Psalms 76, Revelation 11). Two witnesses were the legally necessary subpoenaed parties to the writ (Deuteronomy 17:6, 19:15, Matthew 18:16, 2 Corinthians 13:1, 2 Timothy 5:19, Hebrews 10:27-21). Another example of this cultural tradition is in 1 Kings 21:10.

Why heaven and earth? Are heaven and earth symbolic?
Heaven and earth were highly symbolic (Psalms 85, Lamentations 2:1) due to their literary association with God’s covenant with creation (see Genesis 1:1, Exodus 20:11, 31:17, Psalms 124:8, 134:3, 146:6, Jeremiah 33:25).
One ought to reckon that defining the terms of the Bible with Scripture itself is NOT liberalization. One ought to study the Law of the Old Testament to learn of the powerful archetypal usages of heaven and earth like Deuteronomy 28:23. The usage of the context makes a figurative association with physical elements to as if to say: “the material world is the arena of judgment”.
The New heaven and earth are spiritual realities just as they always were. The figurative language refers generally to creation. The spiritual realities referred to in the Old Testament correspond to the actual heaven and earth as functional testimonies to our sin. To understand the function of the new heaven and earth, one ought first understand what they replaced: condemnation.

Job 20:27 The heaven shall reveal his iniquity; and the earth shall rise up against him. 28 The increase of his house shall depart, and his goods shall flow away in the day of his wrath. 29 This is the portion of a wicked man from God, and the heritage appointed unto him by God. (also see Job 28:21-28)

In Job 1:6-7, the accuser satan is before God [presumably in heaven (Psalms 102:19, 115:16, etc.)] claiming to have been at the crime scene earth. Notice the condemnation of the accuser, until the righteous judge of mercy Christ took jurisdiction (1 Corinthians 15:24-28) of Grace (Romans 8:28-39). This is why Isaiah 51:6’s passing of heaven and earth is within the central theme context of Salvation.

3. Jesus' rhetorical treatment of heaven and earth's passing (ie. Matthew 5, 24) under the conditionality of eschatological pressure

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The full preterist conclusion is an essential correlation of the doctrine Christ’s fulfillment of the Law. When Jesus returned to the Mount of Olives later He specified when that would happen, reaffirming His original statement:
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

One must conclude that anytime there is a promise in the context of the terms heaven and earth (as in 2 Peter 3), they normally refer to the covenantal witness of creation.

4. 2 Peter 3

7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

Peter thought these things were “at hand” [an idiom meaning literally “soon/ within reach” (1 Peter 4:7)]; also see 1 Peter 4:17, 2 Peter 3:9. His argument is carried on from 1 Peter (2 Peter 3:1), and as Paul’s epistles [“hard to understand” (2 Peter 3:13-18)].
The “elements and the works that are therein” are burned up with heaven and earth. The word for “elements” {or στοιχεῖον [G 4747 (stoicheion)]} are not elements on the periodic table, but always used to mean the rudiments of the Jewish Law and tradition by works (Galatians 4, Colossians 2:8, Hebrews 5:12, etc.). Notice also the figurative burning (also see Hebrews 12:29).
Peter’s use of apocalyptic language is conservative of the established Scriptural tradition (Isaiah 13:10-13, 34:4, Ezekiel 32:7, Joel 2:30-31; Matthew 24:29). Peter’s “end of the world” meant the end of a fashion/order of that world (1 Corinthians 7:31). Apply the defined terms of heaven and earth of the Old Testament with the deadline prophesied by Christ to Peter’s prophesy and then one must conclude past fulfillment.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
(also see 2 Peter 3:2)
65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Notice in Isaiah 65 and 66, there is still physical death (Isaiah 65:20, 22), homes and working (65:21-22), and sin (Isaiah 66:3, Revelation 22:15) outside of heaven even after the restoration in the new heaven and earth.

The Past Perfect Verb Style of Isaiah 51:13 Contrasted From the Infinitive Style of 51:16

13And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where is the fury of the oppressor?
16And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

This helps one see the different usage between the physical heavens and earth and the figurative covenantal colloquialism.

Grace be to you,

Vincent Michael Krivda, Jr.

Touchstone Ministries

Barry's picture

Thankyou Vincent.
I enjoyed the article very much. It is IMHO well written and put together and well thought through.

I have a parallel but different take. Here are some thoughts.

Creation is all encompassing. Such touches on the very meaning of “God” and “Maker”.
Such speaks of an inherent relationship between Creator and Creation.
Notice how such is dealt with on an “ego” level between the Creator and the Sentient who would serve Him.
And THIS on a “covenant level” as pertains to the “temple” and its demise, and yet in view of God as Universal Creator.

Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High DWELLETH NOT IN TEMPLES MADE WITH HANDS; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49 HEAVEN [IS] MY THRONE, AND EARTH [IS] MY FOOTSTOOL: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what [is] the place of my rest?
Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?

Act 17:24 God that MADE THE WORLD AND ALL THINGS THEREIN, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, DWELLETH NOT IN TEMPLES MADE WITH HANDS;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Deu 10:14 Behold, THE HEAVEN AND THE HEAVEN OF HEAVENS [IS] THE LORD'S THY GOD, the EARTH [ALSO], WITH ALL THAT THEREIN [is].
Deu 10:15 Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, [even] you above all people, as [it is] this day.
Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

1Ki 8:26 And now, O God of Israel, let thy word, I pray thee, be verified, which thou spakest unto thy servant David my father.
1Ki 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? BEHOLD, THE HEAVEN AND HEAVEN OF HEAVENS CANNOT CONTAIN THEE; how much less this house that I have builded?

2Ch 6:17 Now then, O LORD God of Israel, let thy word be verified, which thou hast spoken unto thy servant David.
2Ch 6:18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? BEHOLD, HEAVEN AND THE HEAVEN OF HEAVENS CANNOT CONTAIN THEE; how much less this house which I have built!

Neh 9:6 Thou, [even] thou, [art] LORD alone; thou HAST MADE HEAVEN, THE HEAVEN OF HEAVENS, WITH ALL THEIR HOST, THE EARTH, AND ALL [THINGS] THAT [ARE] THEREIN, the seas, and all that [is] therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

So then while the temple made with hands serves as a type and “perfume” (2 Ch. 2:4-18) under the old economy it does speak in connection with how the covenant man perceived himself in RELATIONSHIP with his creator-Father.
And this on the basis of the fact that God is “Universal” creator and thus “covenant creator”. One is a SUBSET of the other. So much so that some of the above verses by inferring universal creation do indeed touch upon covenant “Maker”.

The micro cosmos of covenant outworking is the subset of UNIVERSAL CREATION RELATIONSHIP. Universal creation itself held promise and covenant creation was the micro cosmos of that outworking. Universal creation is never spoken of as a mere physical matter but as a relationship matter. Universal creation is spoken of in relationship terms.

Like the construction of a house. Not in terms of 2 by 4’s and roofing shingles but in terms of a “home” and the purpose of the kitchen and the living room and the bedroom dwellings.
The God of COVENANTAL RELATIONSHIP is a GOD OF RELATIONSHIP.
The Covenant Maker is the Maker of all things.

And such is the logic of Paul in Acts chapter 17. And why he could borrow from the Greek poets, as they had happened to touch on these points.
Act 17:28 For in him WE LIVE, and move, and have OUR BEING; as certain also of YOUR OWN POETS have said, For WE ARE ALSO HIS OFFSPRING.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as WE ARE THE OFFSPRING OF GOD, WE OUGHT NOT to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and MAN'S DEVICE.

Dan 5:22 And thou his son, O Belshazzar, hast not humbled thine heart, though thou knewest all this;
an
5:23 But hast lifted up thyself against the Lord of heaven; and they have brought the vessels of his house before thee, and thou, and thy lords, thy wives, and thy concubines, have drunk wine in them; and thou hast praised the gods of silver, and gold, of brass, iron, wood, and stone, WHICH SEE NOT, NOR HEAR, NOR KNOW: AND THE GOD IN WHOSE HAND THY BREATH [IS], AND WHOSE [ARE] ALL THY WAYS, hast thou not glorified:

Job 12:10 Jay P Green literal.
10) In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, AND THE BREATH OF ALL FLESH OF MAN?

Epimenides: [quoted twice by Paul, Caps are my emphasis]
"They fashioned a tomb for thee, O holy and high one—
The Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies!
But thou art not dead: thou livest and abidest forever,
For in thee WE LIVE AND MOVE AND HAVE OUR BEING.”

PHAENOMENA, TRANSLATED BY G. R. MAIR [caps are my emphasis]
[1] From Zeus let us begin; him do we mortals never leave unnamed; full of Zeus are all the streets and all the market-places of men; full is the sea and the havens thereof; always we all have need of Zeus. FOR WE ARE ALSO HIS OFFSPRING; and he in his kindness unto men giveth favourable signs and wakeneth the people to work, reminding them of livelihood.

Cleanthus hymn to Jupiter. [caps are my emphasis]
With Jove we must begin; nor from him rove; Him always praise, for all is full of Jove! He fills all places where mankind resort, The wide-spread sea, with every shelt'ring port. Jove's presence fills all space, upholds this ball; All need his aid; his power sustains us all. FOR WE HIS OFFSPRING ARE; and he in love Points out to man his labour from above: Where signs unerring show when best the soil, By well-timed culture, shall repay our toil, etc.

Much difficulty is caused in Acts chapter 17 when or if we find ourselves unable to follow Paul’s ability to move from covenant creation terminology to universal creation and do so far more uninhibited than we are often comfortable with.

And indeed this is something that the Hebrew Old Testament writers had little difficulty in doing themselves.
Young's literal
Isa 40:21 Do ye not know -- do ye not hear? Hath it not been declared from the first to you? Have ye not understood [From] the foundations of the earth?
Isa 40:22 He who is sitting on the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants [are] as grasshoppers, He who is STRETCHING OUT AS A THIN THING THE HEAVENS, AND SPREADETH THEM AS A TENT TO DWELL IN.

Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, [in whom] my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that CREATED THE HEAVENS, AND STRETCHED THEM OUT; he that SPREAD FORTH THE EARTH, and THAT WHICH COMETH OUT OF IT; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and GIVE THEE FOR A COVENANT OF THE PEOPLE, FOR A LIGHT OF THE GENTILES;

Young's literal
Isa 44:21 Remember these, O Jacob, and Israel, For My servant thou [art], I formed thee, a servant to Me thou [art], O Israel, thou dost not forget Me.
Isa 44:22 I have blotted out, as [by] a thick cloud, Thy transgressions, And as [by] a cloud thy sins, Return unto Me, for I have redeemed thee.
Isa 44:23 Sing, O heavens, for Jehovah hath wrought, Shout, O lower parts of earth
Break forth, O mountains, with singing, Forest, and every tree in it, For Jehovah hath redeemed Jacob, And in Israel He doth beautify Himself.
Isa 44:24 Thus said Jehovah, thy redeemer, And thy framer from the womb: `I [am] Jehovah, doing all things, STRETCHING OUT THE HEAVENS BY MYSELF, SPREADING OUT THE EARTH -- WHO [IS] WITH ME?
Isa 44:25 Making void the tokens of devisers, And diviners it maketh mad, Turning the wise backward, And their knowledge it maketh foolish.
Isa 44:26 CONFIRMING THE WORD OF HIS SERVANT, THE COUNSEL OF HIS MESSENGERS IT PERFECTETH, Who is saying of Jerusalem, She is inhabited, And of cities of Judah, They shall be built, and her wastes I raise up,
Isa 44:27 Who is saying to the deep, Be dry, and thy rivers I cause to dry up,

Isa 45:11 Thus saith the LORD, the HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL, AND HIS MAKER, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
Isa 45:12 I have MADE THE EARTH, AND CREATED MAN UPON IT: I, [EVEN] MY HANDS, HAVE STRETCHED OUT THE HEAVENS, and all their host have I commanded.
Isa 45:13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.
Isa 45:14 Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, [saying], Surely God [is] in thee; and [there is] none else, [there is] no God.

Young's literal.

Isa 51:9 Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of Jehovah, Awake, as [in] days of old, generations of the ages, Art not Thou it that is hewing down Rahab, Piercing a dragon!
Isa 51:10 Art not Thou it that is drying up a sea, Waters of a great deep? That hath made deep places of a sea A way for the passing of the redeemed?
Isa 51:11 And the ransomed of Jehovah turn back, And they have come to Zion with singing, And joy age-during [is] on their head, Gladness and joy they attain, Fled away have sorrow and sighing,
Isa 51:12 I -- I [am] He -- your comforter, Who [art] thou -- and thou art afraid of man? he dieth! And of the son of man -- grass he is made!
Isa 51:13 And thou dost forget JEHOVAH THY MAKER, Who IS STRETCHING OUT THE HEAVENS, AND FOUNDING EARTH, And thou dost fear continually all the day, Because of the fury of the oppressor, As he hath prepared to destroy. And where [is] the fury of the oppressor?
Isa 51:14 Hastened hath a wanderer to be loosed, And he doth not die at the pit, And his bread is not lacking.
Isa 51:15 And I [am] Jehovah thy God, Quieting the sea, when its billows roar, Jehovah of Hosts [is] His name.
Isa 51:16 AND I PUT MY WORDS IN THY MOUTH, AND WITH THE SHADOW OF MY HAND HAVE COVERED THEE, TO PLANT THE HEAVENS, AND TO FOUND EARTH, AND TO SAY TO ZION, `MY PEOPLE [ART] THOU.'
Isa 51:17 Stir thyself, stir thyself, rise, Jerusalem, Who hast drunk from the hand of Jehovah The cup of His fury, The goblet, the cup of trembling, thou hast drunk, Thou hast wrung out.

.
Psa 18:9 HE BOWED 05186 THE HEAVENS 08064 also, and came down 03381 : and darkness 06205 [was] under his feet 07272.
Isa 40:22 [It is] he that sitteth 03427 upon the circle 02329 of the earth 0776, and the inhabitants 03427 thereof [are] as grasshoppers 02284; that STRETCHETH OUT 05186 THE HEAVENS 08064 as a curtain 01852, and spreadeth them out 04969 as a tent 0168 to dwell in 03427 :

Psa 136:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for [he is] good: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.
Psa 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.
Psa 136:3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.
Psa 136:4 To HIM WHO ALONE DOETH GREAT WONDERS: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.
Psa 136:5 To him that BY WISDOM MADE THE HEAVENS: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.
Psa 136:6 To him that STRETCHED OUT THE EARTH ABOVE THE WATERS: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.
Psa 136:7 To him that made great lights: for his mercy [endureth] for ever:
Psa 136:8 The sun to rule by day: for his mercy [endureth] for ever:
Psa 136:9 The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.
Psa 136:10 To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy [endureth] for ever:
Psa 136:11 And BROUGHT OUT ISRAEL FROM AMONG THEM: for his mercy [endureth] for ever:

Amo 4:11 I have overthrown [some] of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.
Amo 4:12 Therefore thus will I do unto thee, O Israel: [and] because I will do this unto thee, prepare to meet thy God, O Israel.
Amo 4:13 For, lo, he that FORMETH THE MOUNTAINS, AND CREATETH THE WIND, and DECLARETH UNTO MAN WHAT [IS] HIS THOUGHT, that maketh the morning darkness, and treadeth upon the high places of the earth, The LORD, The God of hosts, [is] his name.

In the above verses we would be hard pressed to claim either an exclusive “universal creation” or an exclusive “covenant creation”. Although some verses do indeed focus TOWARD ONE or THE OTHER. But Universal creation is not to seen as a mere physical creation as we think of it in modern or even western terms. Personally speaking I do not like the term physical creation.

In my own perspective at this point I seriously doubt the Genesis chapter 1:1 –2:3 is but covenantal in scope. But rather universal in scope and spoken of in what is seen to be covenant terms because “relationship” is always the “backdrop”.

What universal creation tended to do when seen independent of a revelation of the knowledge of God, as revealed THROUGH CHRIST AND NEVER BEFORE, is format the relationship in the context of “law” and “order”. The “ordnances” or “statues” of the moon for example. It spoke in general about the old economy as existed in the consciousness and rational of the old covenant man. In a more detailed specific as a type, the light of the law, which was but a reflection of the daylight. Being one of the two great lights it would be love your neighbor as yourself. The stars being the many laws of the old covenant. The sun being love God with all your heart. Thus the mission of Christ as the Sun of righteousness and thus to bring in the day.

In general terms however the law becomes fulfilled and passes away. In this sense the Sun is no longer need in the fulfilled work of new creation.
The idea being not that General creation passes away but it’s rational did. A rational that had precedence that is in types and figures that mirror General or Universal creation in the mind of people.
So Universal creation is spoken of in the scriptures predominantly from the position of what rational it tended to bring in, the absence of the revelation of Christ Jesus.
This is why we see such a big difference from the first Adam and the second.

Any comments are welcome.
Grace to you and all.
Barry

we are all in this together

Bible-Touchstone's picture

Thanks Barry,
I have enjoyed your Biblical appeals, and follow your insight on this subject. I'm interested in the idea that the Covenant is wholly relational, and so your comments are relevant and stimulating.
Grace be to you,
PFC Vincent Michael Krivda, Jr.
Bible-Touchstone

Barry's picture

Thanks for the responce.
That's a vast subject IMHO Vincent.
I would say the covenant is very rational in many aspects.
Barry

we are all in this together

tom-g's picture

From what I understand of this author's premise he agrees Genesis 1 describes the physical creation and this forms the basis for understanding the spiritual covenant creation.

If this is correct then he would seem to be in fundamental disagreement with the CC of Tim and JL's new book that Genesis does not speak of the physical creation.

Did I understand him correctly?
Tom

Bible-Touchstone's picture

Right on; I don't even see that dialectic as a necessary debate, since the central theme of Genesis 1 is not on whether the Creation is physical or spiritual, but rather the introduction of covenantal themes authored in Christ. Arguing anything more would seem to be hermeneutical irresponsibility to me, although I've heard some good appeals for both extremes. Better to side with the conservative and literal interpretations to build the integrity of ones appeals. I'm just trying to show how of these themes are defined by their context, which I see as "Covenantal".
Grace be to you,
PFC Vincent M. Krivda, Jr.
Bible-Touchstone

mazuur's picture

Have you even read their book?

-RIch

-Rich

tom-g's picture

Hey Rich,

If your question was meant for me, I have read the Introduction, Ch.1 and the revised Ch.6 several times. I have also read Tim's earlier edition which is archived here on PP many times.

I have commented here several times that I will be buying my copy from Tim and JL on Friday, actually on Thursday evening if they arrive early. That way I will have an opportunity to read it before the conference starts.

Tom

mazuur's picture

Tom,

My question was directed to Vincent. If he hasn't read the book then how can he say, "Right on"?

Then there is this statement, "since the central theme of Genesis 1 is not on whether the Creation is physical or spiritual, but rather the introduction of covenantal themes"

Tim and JL don't present Genesis either as "physical" nor "spiritual". They present it as "Covenantal". There is a big difference. His statement makes me think he doesn't even understand this. It seem he just assumes Tim and JL book was one of the two options he presented (physical or spiritual), as was basically saying, "yeah, I read books that present both those ideas and I've heard some good appeals for both extremes". Problem, Tim and JL's book don't present either one of this ideas.

The really funny part is what he states after that. He then says, "but rather the introduction of covenantal themes". Is this not what Tim and JL do? They present Genesis as Covenantal.

This statement I just don't get, "Better to side with the conservative and literal interpretations". Huh? How can you side with opposing sides?

He then states yet again, " I'm just trying to show how of these themes are defined by their context, which I see as "Covenantal"."

Is this not exactly what Tim and JL do?

How can he agree with you and say "Right on", and then turn around and argue for Tim and JL's position?

Maybe I'm totally misunderstanding his entire post.

-RIch

-Rich

tom-g's picture

Hey Rich,

If you have a problem understanding this post, you can imagine the problem I am having with your explanation of Tim and JL's major premise in BCS. "Covenantal."

As I have said I have read the Introduction, Ch. 1, and the revised CH.6 of BCS on their official website. I don't know what you think is the goal that they had in writing their book, but I can only go by what they explicitly say is their goal, AND IT IS NOT COVENANTAL! Unless JL was not making a tongue in cheek sophistical statement when he said, all words are metaphors.

Here are the concluding paragraphs of their revised Chapter Six.

Chapter Six ends: "The following pages of this book represent a muulti-faceted investigation into these questions. What you hold in your hands is a comprehensive critique of young-earth creationism. As such it will include a dimension we have never seen incorporated as an argument against young-earth creationism. Our presentation will center on what we believe to be the central error of young-earth creationism - futurism."

"We will argue against the three pillars of modern young-earth creationism from the perspective of a preterist view of New Testament prophecy. We believe that preterism offers a refutation of: (1) the belief that the Genesis flood was global; (2) the belief that no biological death existed before the fall; and (3) the belief that the creation week in Genesis 1 contains 24-hour days."

"Our goal is to convince you that any critique of modern young-earth creationism that assumes prophetic futurism will be ineffective over the long run. In like manner, any critique of modern futurism that assumes young-earth creationism will also be just as ineffective. Only a holistic approach to the Bible from Genesis to Revelation can provide a coherent alternative to the popularity of young-earth creationism on one side of the Bible and dispensational premillennialism on the other. In the end, they will stand or fall together."

So Rich, maybe you think this at the end of Chapter Six is a description of a covenantal interpretation being explained, if so then it can only be as a result of you agreeing with JL that everything written is metaphorical.

I choose to think that they mean what they say and the goal of their book is to prove Genesis is about a physical YEC and a physical local flood. Chapter One is an explanation of the plain literal time prophecies of the physical destruction of Jerusalem, and Chapter Six is an historical presentation of the contrasting secular views of whether Genesis describes the creation of an old physical earth or a young physical earth.

If you have read their book and see that they have said something other than that in these chapters I would be eager to see what it is.

Tom

mazuur's picture

Tom,

You know I stated to write a big response to all that you said (which totally freaked me out by the way). Not sure how one could even begin to think the book is not about Covenant Creation (and state more than once in his post) when the title is "Beyond Creation Science: New Covenant Creation from Genesis to Revelation".

For example: "I choose to think that they mean what they say and the goal of their book is to prove Genesis is about a physical YEC and a physical local flood."

The "book is to prove Genesis is about a physical YEC"????????? Uh???? How is it possible for anyone to come away and think such a thing? And concerning the flood, the question of whether or not the flood is physical or not, isn't nor ever has been, the question. The debate is whether it was local or global, that is it. Of course if was physical.

I'll just tell you that you seriously need to read the whole book and leave it at that. Then you will be able to grasp the concept of Covenant Creation.

Remember back when you were a futurist and the day the lights went off when your brain suddenly grasped what the NT was really saying (its Preteristic presentation)? Same thing in going on at the other end of the Bible. You have been told your entire life how to read and understand Genesis so its covenantal presentation is currently hid from your eyes. If you allow yourself to have an open mind, I think you'll suddenly see Genesis in a whole new light too. Of course, maybe not.

Anyway, just get the book and read it. Then you'll be in a position to relate to what people may be saying. Without the context, statements will probably appear to be confusing to you, which is why you stated "If you have a problem understanding this post, you can imagine the problem I am having with your explanation of Tim and JL's major premise in BCS" Of course, it could also be my pathetic ability to convey though through this type of medium. :)

-Rich

-Rich

tom-g's picture

Rich,

I did misspeak about their book being YEC, it is definitely about OEC and a local flood. But I was correct in saying that nothing I have read through Ch. 6 had anything to do with any subject other than the controversy of whether Genesis was about a YEC or a OEC. In any case it was about a physical creation and no source was cited by them to deny that fact.

And no, I do not remember back to any time when I was a futurist. I have never been a futurist from the first time I confessed that Jesus was Lord and believed that God had raised him from the dead. Not ever being burdened down with that garbage is probably why this current covenantal BS is so easy to spot and disprove.

Every argument that destroys dispensationalism is able to be utilized to destroy covenantalism just as easily. They are just two faces of the same error.

In my opinion of course.
Tom

Bible-Touchstone's picture

To eliminate any confusion, by "right on" I was only affirming the normality of the "physical" creation in Genesis 1. My appeals to covenant themes are dependent on a conservative hermeneutic. I have not read the book you folks are talking about; I hope I can get a copy sometime.
Grace be to you,
PFC Vincent Michael Krivda, Jr.
Bible-Touchstone

mazuur's picture

Vincent,

Thanks for clearly us up.

-Rich

-Rich

tom-g's picture

Thanks PFC,

Since you see Genesis 1 as covenantal and this is not a self evident truth or grammatically or logically true from the immediate text, do you not see the need to demonstrate the validity of your major premise?

Tom

Bible-Touchstone's picture

Two more relevant covenantal themes

The Corrupting “Flesh” and the "Creation/Creature" Is an Analogous Portrait of “the Body of this Death”

By “the flesh”, Paul is not referring solely to the physical body separate from the soul (see Matthew 10:28, Romans 7:18-25, 8:5-7, 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Isaiah 10:18), but rather the body distinct from the Spirit (see John 6:63, Romans 8, 1 Corinthians 5:3-5, Galatians 5:17, 6:8, Hebrews 4:12, James 2:26, 1 John 4:14, Jude 1:18-23). By the flesh, Paul clues that he means the body’s depraved condition independent (Genesis 6:3, Romans 8:9) of the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God is the covenantal (Ezekiel 11:15-21, 36, John 14:21, 1 Corinthians 2:10-16, 7:34-40, Ephesians 2) tantamount of Christ (Psalm 104:30, Proverbs 18:14, 20:27, Ecclesiastes 3:20-22, 12:7, Isaiah 32:15, 40:10-14, 48:16-17, 63:8-10, John 14:16-20, 16:13, Romans 8:1-2, 8:9-11, 2 Corinthians 3:3, Galatians 3:14-16, Philippians 1:19-20, 3:3, Hebrews 9:14, 1 Peter 1:10-11, 1 John 5:6). The “flesh” is the covenantal (Genesis 2:21-24, 3:17, Romans 5:13-21, 1 Corinthians 15:44-50, Colossians 2, Hebrews 2:14, 1 Peter 3:18-22) tantamount of the figure (Romans 5:14) of Adam (1 Corinthians 15:21-22). Flesh and Spirit appear to be dynamically practical symbols to describe the revelation of the two requisitionary “bodies” (John 3:6, 1 Corinthians 15:38-50) exposed by Christ’s light (1 John 1:7). The language shows the vatic Biblical precedent of the Reformed tradition’s elaborative Biblical paradigm “Covenant Theology”. Analyzing the scripture alone with scripture preserves the original meanings of the figurative language used of the literary type theme convention of Covenatalism.

The Flesh

Paul often semantically associates “the flesh” in a covenantal context, since through the Law sin operated on the body unto death (Romans 3:6-20, 4:15, 5:13, 5:20, 6:14, 7:5-12, 8:3, 8:20-23, 1 Corinthians 15:56, Colossians 2:14, 1 John 3:4). The covenantal context of “the flesh” has beginnings in the circumcision rite of the Old Testament (Genesis 17:9-27, 21:4, 34:15/34:22-24, Exodus 12:44-50, Leviticus 12:2-3, Deuteronomy 10:15-16, 30, Joshua 5, Jeremiah 4:4, 9:25, John 7:22-24, Acts 7:8, Acts 15:5, Romans 2:25-3:31, 4:9-25, 1 Corinthians 7:18-19, Galatians 5-6, Ephesians 2:11-18, Philippians 3:3-9, Colossians 2:11-15). The pun works at least two ways (with one central theme). The flesh refers to the flesh of the foreskin, a physical marking of the consecrated covenant (Genesis 17:11-14); and also to the ethnic “flesh” of the physical stock of Covenantal Israel (Acts 13:26, Exodus 34:27, Numbers 18:19, Jeremiah 31:31-33, Romans 9:3-8, Hebrews 8).

Paul makes use of “flesh” as a practical euphemism for sin and death (Romans 7:5, Galatians 6:8). The writers of the epistles use that kind of rhetoric to characterize the New Covenant (Romans 7:6, 8). The Spirit, as distinct (Romans 8:2-9, Galatians 5:17-18) to the flesh, is synonymous with the New Covenant fulfillment (Matthew 5:17-20, Romans 6:14-8:23, 13:8-14, Galatians 4:21-5:16) of the (Ephesians 2:7-22, Hebrews 7-12:24) Old Covenant (Deuteronomy 4:12-14, Galatians 5:18). This cleverly paints a portrait of redemption (Romans 3:20-31, Leviticus 25, Ruth 4:4-7, 2 Samuel 7:19-29, 1 Chronicles 7:19-27, Nehemiah 1, 5, Psalms 31:5, 49, 111:9, 130, Isaiah 43, Jeremiah 31:7-37, 32:8, Hosea 13:14, Luke 21:28, 1 Corinthians 1, Galatians 3-5:18, Ephesians 1:3-2:22, 4:30, Colossians 1-3, Hebrews 9:7-26, 1 Peter 1:17-25, Revelation 5:9).

Creature/ The New Creation

Just as the argot “flesh” is covenantal idiolect for covenant themes, “creature” also shares an intimation of Genesis (Genesis 1:20-24, 2:19, 9:10-16). The covenantal context of the word נפשׁ (Nephesh) is also shown in Leviticus 11:46.

The New Testament introduces the Greek tantamount “ktisis” (κτίσις). Strong’s defines “creature” in this Greek usage as: original formation (properly the act; by implication the thing, literally or figuratively): - building, creation, creature, ordinance.

“Creature” in the New Testament has a contextually shaped denotation to the covenant theology model. The sovereign Creator (God) subpoenas the relative creature by charter of Law. The supposition that the Biblical scriptures alone are revealed is rooted in the view that the Bible indentures its parties by sacred covenant. The legitimacy of the contract is in the authority, credibility, and righteous judgment of God (the promulgator) in the affidavit of Christ and the apostles.

In Mark 16:13, Jesus decreed the command to “preach the gospel to every creature”. A normal reading of the text does not suggest that Jesus meant every living thing should be preached the gospel to (also see Colossians 1:23, 1:28), but rather all people in the set of all “creatures”. Romans 8:1-29 give clues to the identity of the “creatures/creation”. But this creation of Romans 8 is newer than the creation of Mark 16:13. The creation of Mark 16:13 referred to the creature under the subpoena of the Law, the Jews. But the fullness of God’s dispensation (Ephesians 2:1-9, Colossians 1:24-28) incorporates (Ephesians 2:11-22) gentiles, but was not instituted until after Mark 16:13. The new economy of God is still covenantal but is now spiritual, built upon better promises. The new creation is of Jews and gentiles. Virtually every time the King James Version of the Bible uses the term “creature”, it is always in a covenantal context. When interpreting the scriptures, the context always suggests how we should approach them. “Creature” is accordingly a colloquial furnishing referring to the set of all votaries influenced by God’s effectual vocation (Colossians 1:29). Essentially, the vocative creature is by grace made into a new being in Christ. God’s sovereign monergism is demonstrated in His creative workmanship (Ephesians 2:10).

Colossians 1:15, 1 Timothy 4, Hebrews 4:13, Revelation 5:13

The New Creation

2 Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 6:15

New Garments

Zechariah 3

mazuur's picture

Vincent,

I was wondering if you have ever read John A.T. Robinson's book "The Body"? Also, have you read Max King's work "The Cross and the Parousia of Christ"?

-Rich

-Rich

Bible-Touchstone's picture

Sure, I've checked them out before, but they've left little impression on me. Those are both very famous works, but I can't say I remember much from what I've read, it being a long time ago. I have a habit of dismissing much of King's conclusions. What do you think of these books? Do you want to chat any particular point on these?
Vincent Michael Krivda, Jr.
Bible-Touchstone

mazuur's picture

Vincent,

I was just wondering since you posted that post concerning Paul's presentation of "flesh" and "body". If you hadn't I was going to recommend them to you for additional thought.

I am on the other end of your conclusions regarding King. I thought he was right on. I thought they were both tremendous works.

Blessings,
Rich

-Rich

Barry's picture

Vincent. Great post IMHO.
Here are a few perspectives of my own that somewhat mirror a few of your own points. You can pick and choose what makes sense to you :)

Quote:
By the flesh, Paul clues that he means the body’s depraved condition independent (Genesis 6:3, Romans 8:9) of the Spirit of God.
End quote.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him,
{in the transformation of the ages}
to them gave he POWER to become the sons of God,
{as the manifestation of the Sons of God}
[even] to them that BELIEVE ON HIS NAME:
Jhn 1:13 Which were born, NOT OF BLOOD, nor of THE WILL OF THE FLESH, nor of the WILL OF MAN, but of God.
Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the FLESH PROFITETH NOTHING: the words that I speak unto you, [they] ARE SPIRIT, and [they] ARE LIFE.

Mat 3:2 And saying, REPENT YE: for the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS AT HAND.

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the WRATH TO COME?
{the wrath about to be}
Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
{worthy of a transforming RATIONAL, worthy of change of mind and perspective concerning the fruitfulness of the RATIONAL of an independent human potential from Adam}
Mat 3:9 And THINK NOT TO SAY WITHIN YOURSELVES, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that GOD IS ABLE of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
{in the consummation of the present evil age}

Thus Paul is referring to the “flesh” as the present Body and thus “ego” or “self defined person”, of the old creature. The self defined rational of the old creature. This “ego” was a body of death. Formulated around the rational of an independent human potential. Thus God’s injunction: “You shall not eat…” For which internalizing did complete the “natural man”. Natural not in physicality but in rational, in an independent human potential. Thus the “self defined self”.

The “soul” is not independent of that “context of rational”.
Thus that “soul-life” was corruptible. Thus that “soul-life” was limited in efficacy by the GRAVE and by truly by THE END OF THE AGE. Matthew 10:28
Luk 12:2 For there is nothing covered, THAT SHALL NOT BE REVEALED; neither hid, that SHALL NOT BE KNOWN.
Luk 12:3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be HEARD IN THE LIGHT; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be PROCLAIMED UPON THE HOUSETOPS.
Luk 12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and AFTER THAT HAVE NO MORE THAT THEY CAN DO.
Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER HE HATH KILLED HATH POWER TO CAST INTO HELL; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Thus the valley of Himmon judgment where the old creature lost their “soul-life”.
They were to lose that “soul-life” willingly to find it, or lose it catastrophically in the consummation of that age. [the passing away of types and figures which gave a standing for the self defined self in the rational of an independent human potential.]

Luk 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him DENY HIMSELF, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Luk 9:24 For whosoever will save HIS LIFE SHALL LOSE IT: but whosoever will LOSE HIS LIFE FOR MY SAKE, the same SHALL SAVE IT.
Luk 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain THE WHOLE WORLD, and LOSE HIMSELF, or be CAST AWAY?
{in the context of an independent}
Luk 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, WHEN HE SHALL COME IN HIS OWN GLORY, and [in his] Father's, and of the holy angels.
Luk 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Luk 14:26 If any [man] come to me, and HATE not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, AND HIS OWN LIFE ALSO, he cannot be my disciple.
{In the context of the an independent rational. That being the self defined self as opposed to the God defined person.}
Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have [sufficient] to finish [it]?
{The tower is liken to the Temple. It stood for that which is “made with hands”.}
Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish [it], all that behold [it] begin to mock him,
{for such being corruptible could never really be completed}
Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Luk 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
Luk 14:32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

And thus things speak of the shame that would come upon the old creature in the context of his self defined rational. Which things stood in the precedence of types and figures from Adam.

Quote:
The creation of Mark 16:13 referred to the creature under the subpoena of the Law, the Jews. But the fullness of God’s dispensation (Ephesians 2:1-9, Colossians 1:24-28) incorporates (Ephesians 2:11-22) gentiles, but was not instituted until after Mark 16:13.
End quote.

Interesting point.
Notice how the terms “age” and “world” are in 1 Corinthians embracive of the Greeks and their own culture.
A short study in 1 Corinthians:

What was HEADED UP in the old covenant chosen people is descriptive of all self-defining in all.
1Cr 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I AM OF Paul; and I OF Apollos; and I OF Cephas; and I OF Christ.

1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to THEM THAT PERISH FOOLISHNESS; but unto us WHICH ARE SAVED it is the power of God.
The tenses here are “perishing” and “being saved”.

1Cr 1:19 For it is written, I will DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, and will BRING TO NOTHING the understanding of the prudent.
1Cr 1:20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the DISPUTER OF THIS WORLD? hath not God made foolish the WISDOM OF THIS WORLD?

We have thus far a clear indication of that which these “CALLED OUT” ones were called out OF. That being from the WISDOM OF THAT WORLD and THAT AGE as seen in both Jew and Greek.

1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God THE WORLD BY WISDOM KNEW NOT GOD, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Cr 1:22 For the JEWS REQUIRE A SIGN, and the GREEKS SEEK AFTER WISDOM:

God’s plan and thus what pleased him to show himself to the “world” included the Greeks in that world and in that age.

1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Cr 1:24 But unto them which are called, BOTH JEWS AND GREEKS, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Being BOTH “called out” of THAT WORLD and THAT AGE.

1Cr 1:28 And BASE THINGS OF THE WORLD, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to BRING TO NOUGHT THINGS THAT ARE:
1Cr 1:29 That NO FLESH should glory in his presence.

1Cr 2:4 And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words OF MAN'S WISDOM, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Cr 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the WISDOM OF MEN, but in the POWER OF GOD.
1Cr 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet NOT THE WISDOM OF THIS WORLD, nor of THE PRINCES OF THIS WORLD, that COME TO NOUGHT: {Correct tense is “coming to nothing”}
1Cr 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Cr 2:8 Which none of the PRINCES OF THIS WORLD knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

The rulers of that age are the old covenant rulers. They ruled through the precedence of types and figures over a comprehensive problem. Paul is clearly addressing the problem from how it is HEADED UP in the Old Covenant Chosen People, but not to the exclusion of the problem in general and how it was manifested among the Greeks and all those who were called out of that “world” in its larger scope.

1Cr 2:12 Now we have received, NOT the SPIRIT OF THE WORLD, but the SPIRIT WHICH IS OF GOD; that we might KNOW the things that are FREELY GIVEN TO US OF GOD.
1Cr 2:13 WHICH THINGS ALSO WE SPEAK, not in the words which MAN'S WISDOM TEACHETH, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Cr 2:14 But the NATURAL MAN receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
1Cr 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself IS JUDGED OF NO MAN.
1Cr 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

The natural man is headed up and defined in the old covenant chosen people. But is indicative of a larger “NATURAL” state of mind and rational from Adam.

1Cr 3:3 For ye are YET CARNAL: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and WALK AS MEN?
1Cr 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
1Cr 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
1Cr 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1Cr 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

1Cr 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise IN THIS WORLD, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
1Cr 3:19 For the WISDOM OF THIS WORLD is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
1Cr 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

1Cr 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and [to] Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think [of men] ABOVE THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
1Cr 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ [from another]? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive [it], WHY DOST THOU GLORY, AS IF THOU HADST NOT RECEIVED [IT]?

1Cr 5:1 It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication AS IS NOT SO MUCH AS NAMED AMONG THE GENTILES, that one should have his father's wife. {IE not named among the unbelieving Gentiles}
1Cr 5:2 And YE ARE PUFFED UP, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Cr 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed,
1Cr 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Cr 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for THE DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH, that the SPIRIT MAY BE SAVED in the DAY OF THE LORD JESUS.

Judgment is being brought to the Gentiles within the sphere of the influence of Israel.

Just a few thoughts. Hope that it was somewhat understandable.
Grace to you,
Barry

we are all in this together

Bible-Touchstone's picture

Thanks for your comments and insight into these important themes. I appreciate you sharing your Biblical appeals. I especially like your analysis on 1 Corinthians 1, 2.
Grace be to you,
PFC Vincent M. Krivda, Jr.
Bible-Touchstone

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