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Classic Dispensational Refutation Of Preterism


By EWMI - Posted on 26 February 2006

by Albert Persohn
Older Bible teachers described this as "double" or "dual" fulfill-ment and as the "near view" and "far view" of prophecy. Interpreters today speak more in terms of sensus plenior, a phrase offered to describe the "fuller sense" seemingly given to certain OT prophecies as they are unfolded in the light of NT revelation.Older Bible teachers described this as "double" or "dual" fulfill-ment and as the "near view" and "far view" of prophecy. Interpreters today speak more in terms of sensus plenior, a phrase offered to describe the "fuller sense" seemingly given to certain OT prophecies as they are unfolded in the light of NT revelation.Following is a classic Dispensational refutation of Preterism. The article was written in 1997 and one wonders if Dispensationalists today would squirm at his refutation.

There are two interesting points in the article worth noting. First as the opening paragraph shows, the author accepts multiple fulfillment of prophecy (or whatever you wish to call it) as normal.

The author is also committed to progressive fulfillment:

"This is enough to see that this matter of progressive fulfillment is standard issue in Biblical prophecy. It is not the exception but the rule. And it cannot be ignored."

He confirms (strangely for a Dispensationalist) that Jesus did indeed come in AD70: "To be sure, the destruction of Jerusalem was a "coming" of Christ in predicted judgment." This conclustion forces him to teach that Jesus will come a third time with cosmic implications.

Preterism & Biblical Prophecy Is all prophecy already fulfilled?

by Fred G. Zaspel
Published by Word of Life Baptist Church

copyright © 1997 All rights reserved
Copying or reproductions are permitted for non-commercial use only.

Abstract

Preterism is a system of prophetic interpretation that understands virtually all of Biblical prophecy to be already fulfilled. The second coming of Christ and all attending events, the resurrection, etc., are all understood as now past. Christ has come, the kingdom has come, and the resurrection has occurred, all in a spirtual way. This brief paper provides a concise overview of how Biblical prophecy is fulfilled and this in light of the preterist claims.

The Nature of Prophetic Fulfillment

It has long been recognized that Biblical prophecy is normally fulfilled not in a single event but in a series of events which bring the prophecy to it final culmination. Seldom is the answer one-to-one but one-to-one, two, three, four, and so on. In the unfolding of redemptive history the prophecy is seen to take on a wider or more detailed significance.

Older Bible teachers described this as "double" or "dual" fulfill-ment and as the "near view" and "far view" of prophecy. Interpreters today speak more in terms of sensus plenior, a phrase offered to describe the "fuller sense" seemingly given to certain OT prophecies as they are unfolded in the light of NT revelation. Others would prefer to speak in terms of a "canonical process" which develops more fully and more specifically the original sense and intent of the prophecy. More popularly, interpreters speak of the "now and not yet" aspect of Biblical prophecy, emphasizing that a given prophey may well come to realization now yet await its fuller manifestation later; its fulfillment is both now and not yet.

Arguments could be made for the precise accuracy of preferable terminology, but our point here is simply to notice that Biblical prophecy normally unfolds in a progressively fulfilling way. In the unfolding of redemptive history the prophecy is seen to take on a wider or more detailed significance.

Yes, there is the occasional one-to-one fulfillment. The Bethlehem prophecy (Mic.5:2) provides one example. But it is generally more complex than this, and examples in the prophetic Word abound. The very first prophecy sets the stage. The Champion promised to defeat the tempter finds initial realization in the earthly ministry of Jesus and His casting out of demons (Mat.12:28). By His casting out of demons, He Himself explains, Satan's kingdom is invaded and plundered. In Jesus God has come good on His promise to defeat the tempter. But there is obviously more to it than that. And again Jesus Himself says so. In anticipation of His death He declares, "Now is the prince of this world cast out" (Jn.12:). Here, in Jesus' death, Satan loses his head (cf. Heb.2). Here the promise finds its fulfillment. Or does it? Writing to the Roman believers Paul declares that God will "crush Satan under your feet shortly" (Rom.16:20). So we find the promise is fulfilled and "not yet" fulfilled. And of course Revelation 20 fills in the final details with Satan's bondage in the abyss and then finally being cast into the lake of fire forever. Here, at last, the prophecy is finally and fully fulfilled. But you see, the answer to the original promise was not one-to-one. The fulfillment came in a succession of events which brought the promise to its full consummation.

This is the Bible's first prophecy. And it stands as the pattern of the fulfillment of so many others. Moses' prophecy of a prophet like him to come (Dt.18:15ff) surely finds its answer in the long succession of Israel's prophets (see E. J. Young, My Servants the Prophets). God came good on His promise to provide continued direction for the nation of Israel in her land. But of course the prophecy is fully realized in Christ, the Prophet par excellence, the Son, the true revelation of God (Heb.1:1f).

The prophecies of the coming of the Messiah unfold similarly. They may not have known it beforehand, but it is clear that the Messiah's coming is a two-stage event. There is the first coming and the second. At the first the promise was realized, but not until the second is it consummated.

Indeed, the very promise of salvation is fulfilled "now" in Christ (Rom.5:1) but still awaits the people of God. It is presently realized but "not yet" fully manifested.

Antichrist provides another example. The details of Dan.11 so graphically portray Antiochus Epiphanes that critical scholars insist that "Daniel" wrote after the fact. Of course we deny their conclusion, but the prophecy's fulfillment in Antiochus is obvious. But then Jesus speaks of this "abomination" as yet future (Mat.24). As does Paul (2 Thes.2) and, (so it would seem from the many thematic parallels) John (Rev.13). And so the prophecy is fulfilled and yet is fulfilled again and is to be fulfilled still again, only more fully. But John tells us also that Antichrist "has come" (1Jn.4). He is the false teachers who lead men astray. So Antichrist "has come" and "will come." He is "now," and he is "not yet."

As I say, examples of this abound, even in many of the OT prophecies which are already fulfilled. Prophecies of the destruction of great cities are fulfilled by the ruthless actions of some conqueror, and then again more fully by another.

The same is true in reference to the Kingdom. It came with the coming of Jesus. His Kingdom is "now." But He also taught us to pray, "Thy Kingdom come" (Mat.6:10). He taught that the Kingdom was future (Mat.7:21; 25:31ff etc.). Paul and the other NT writers regularly spoke of Christ's Kingdom as future (e.g., 2 Tim.4:1). The Kingdom, for Jesus and the apostles, was "now and not yet." Its fulfillment comes in stages.

All of history is in the minds of the Biblical writers divided into two ages this age and the age to come. The age to come is the time of outpouring of Messianic blessing, and in the first coming of Jesus that age dawned. In Christ we are they "upon whom the ends of the ages have come" (1Cor.10:11). Yet while the writer to the Hebrews can speak of this time now as "these last days" (Heb.1:1-2), Paul speaks of "the last days" as still future to him (2Tim.3:1). There is both, the "now" and the "not yet," a present realization and a future manifestation.

In other words, the prophecy is progressively fulfilled. Nor is it a mere "dual" prophecy. It is rather that the "sooner" realization is of a piece with the full and final manifestation of it. The single prophecy finds a progressive unfolding in stages.

I should not need to belabor the point any longer. This is enough to see that this matter of progressive fulfillment is standard issue in Biblical prophecy. It is not the exception but the rule. And it cannot be ignored. This simply must be borne in mind when seeking to interpret the prophetic Word, lest we take a mere part for the whole. The interpreter must be careful to be comprehensive in his study before announcing "this is that." Only when the prophecy is "full" is it "fulfilled."

Due recognition of this principle is vital to accurate interpretation of the prophetic Word. Often it is the case that two sides of a prophetic debate, each with a part of the whole, make as though the whole were their "part." It's often so that neither side is wrong in what they are saying, except that they have only one half of the picture. But not until all the parts are together is there the whole. And again, we must not announce fulfillment until we are sure the prophecy has been filled.

Preterism & the Kingdom

Here is one basic flaw of preterism as I see it. Ironically, it is the same mistake made by the older dispensationalists who said there was no present realization of the Kingdom, only future. They wanted it all "not yet." Preterism wants it all "now." Both hold a part to be the whole.

This flaw is evident in Preterism's understanding of the NT teaching that Jesus / the Kingdom will come "soon." This was Albert Schweitzer's observation, and it led him to conclude that Jesus was sadly mistaken. But does the NT lead us in this way? It does indeed announce that the Kingdom is "near" (eggizo; e.g., Mk.1:15). But it also makes the bold announcement of the presence of the Kingdom. In Jesus the Kingdom has not only "come near"; it has come (ephthasen, Mat.12:28; cf., 11:11ff; Lk.17:21). Curiously, the preterist loves to emphasize the nearness of the Kingdom in the teaching of Jesus. But the problem is more difficult than that: Jesus taught not only that the Kingdom was near, but that it had come.

But Jesus speaks at least as clearly to the fact that there will be a "delay" before His coming, a delay of some duration. He spoke the parable in Luke 19:11-27 to explain this very thing. Luke gives us this interpretive clue when he says, "He spoke another parable because He was near Jerusalem and because they thought the Kingdom of God would appear immediately" (v.11). Jesus went on to speak not in terms of a short time but of a long journey to a "far country" for the purpose of "receiving His Kingdom" and to return to exercise the attending rights of it. Mat.24:45-51 speaks of enough time prior to His return that allows evil men to be slothful because of the "delay" (v.48; cf. Luk.12:45). Mat.25:5 speaks again of the Bridegroom "delaying." Mat.25:19 speaks of the Lord's return as "after a long time." James 5:7-8 is often cited to emphasize the impending nature of Christ's return, and so it does; but it also speaks of time, time for growing frustration which in turn demands that we "wait patiently." The delay is of such duration that scoffers are able to mock and deny it (2 Pet.3:1ff). "I will be with you unto the end of the age" (Mat.28:20) does lead one to think in terms of some duration of time, more than just a few years.

How then are we to relieve this tension? How can the Kingdom come both now and later? The preterist insists that Jesus taught it was "near" and from that he argues that the Kingdom came in its fullness in A.D. 70. He may well hold a part of the truth in referring to the arrival of the Kingdom then. But we must say from the evidence that this is not the whole of it. The Kingdom comes in stages. Now and later. Here and then, following a time of delay.

This, in turn, forces us to re-evaluate the claims that the prophecies of the "coming" of the Son of man and the "Kingdom" which are fulfilled in A.D. 70 are exhaustively fulfilled there (e.g., Mat.10:23; 16:27-28). It would indeed be difficult to miss the connection with the events of A.D. 70. The destruction of Jerusalem was an enormously significant event in the prophecies of the Gospels. Like the Babylonian captivity in the OT, it was of a piece with the day of the Lord. There is a theological unity. But that it was the exhaustive fulfilling of that Day demands exegetical demonstration, and it is here that preterism fails. In holding that A.D. 70 exhausts the Kingdom and coming prophecies preterism dilutes much of the ideas contained in many of these prophecies.

For example, preterism is correct in that the Kingdom is a spiritual Kingdom (Mat.12:28; 21:43; 23:13; Lk.17:20-21; etc.) And it is correct in that it is an earthly Kingdom (Mat.5:5; 8:11-12; Lk.19:11ff; 1Cor.15:22-28). But it does not go far enough with either consideration. The rule of the Kingdom is universal and one that is much more evident that it is today. A rule in which the will of God is everywhere perfectly done, admitting no rebellion. It involves a separation among men in which those who have followed the words of Christ continue in blessedness, and those who have not are destroyed in judgment (Mat.7:21ff; cf. Mat.8:11-12). This fullness of the Kingdom is preceded by the destruction of the wicked "at the end of this age" (Mat.13:38-42) and is characterized by the righteous "shining forth as the sun" in their absence (v.43). "This age" continues with its mix of evil and righteous, but in the Kingdom the evil are cast out (Mat.13:47-50). To be a part of His Kingdom is a future blessing of reigning with Christ which follows this time of difficulty in discipleship (Mat.19:27-29) "leaving all to follow Him" is for this age, and it is followed by reward in His Kingdom. This age runs its course as "this present evil age" (Gal.1:4), while believers do indeed enjoy a share in the Kingdom "ahead of time." But the fullness of the Kingdom awaits the return of our Lord from Heaven (1Cor.15:23-28). In short, some of the data suggests a present Kingdom. Some of the data suggests a future Kingdom. All the data together demands both.

Preterism & the Second Coming of Christ

Preterism fails in this regard also as it argues that the hope of Christ's return was likewise fulfilled in A.D. 70. To be sure, the destruction of Jerusalem was a "coming" of Christ in predicted judgment. But that it was "this same Jesus coming again in like manner as you have seen him go up into heaven" (Acts 1:11) is extremely difficult to conceive. Indeed, if it were, words would seem to have lost all meaning. "We shall see Him as He is" and so be "like Him" (1Jn.3:2) would appear misleading if A.D. 70 exhausted it. "Every eye shall see Him" (Rev.1:7) and "then shall you see" Him in His return coming "in great glory on the clouds of heaven" (Mat.24:30) in the company of all His saints (1Th.4:16f; Rev.19:11ff) and heralded by angels (1Th.4:16) in an event so spectacular that it cannot possibly be missed (Mat.24:26-27) and "coming again to receive you unto myself, that where I am there you may be also (Jn.14:3) all very naturally lead one to expect a personal, visible return as traditionally yes, unanimously understood by the saints throughout the church age. Indeed, to hear the preterist arguing that "Christ really did come in A.D. 70" reminds one of those against whom Jesus warned (Mat.24:26-27) (to paraphrase) "if they have to tell you I have come, rest assured that I haven't. Like the lightening, you won't be able to miss it." Those who try to convince us that Christ has come, announce by that very action that they are false teachers.

There is much that makes the preterist position difficult to believe. To say that the coming in judgment in A.D. 70 exhausts the blessed hope destroys the analogy of the first advent, it misses the overall pattern of prophetic fulfillment, it renders plain words mysterious and ethereal, and it plainly falls under the denial of our Lord Himself in Mat.24:26-27.

Preterism & the Resurrection

It is a curious thing that the over-realized eschatology of Corinth has re-surfaced in preterism. The ancient denial of the resurrection of the body may have been grounded in good Greek philosophy, but it was a denial of the essentials of the gospel (1Cor.15). In 1Cor.15 Paul explains something of the resurrection body, that it will be both different from and yet continuous with this body (vv.35-50). And whatever the differences, the body buried is the body raised (vv.42-44). So important is this that Paul hinges the truth of the gospel on it (vv.12ff). If Jesus did not experience bodily resurrection, then there is nothing left to preach, and we have no hope. But of course, "Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep" (v.20). He did not remain in the grave; nor shall we.

This of course was one point of issue between the Pharisees and the Sadducees. The Pharisees affirmed the coming resurrection, the Sadducees denied it. Paul at times positioned himself with the Pharisees in this matter (Acts 23:6-8), thus showing his own beleif in the physical resurrection. But more than agreeing that a physical, bodily resurrection was to come, he boldly announced that in Jesus it had already taken place (Acts 4:1-2). Jesus arose, and not in a merely spiritual sense; His tomb became empty. And for this preaching he was mocked by the Greeks of his day (Acts 17:32), but undaunted he continued both to teach and to strive to be a part of that "out resurrection from out of the dead" (ten exanastasin ten ek nekron, Phil.3:11). His hope was to be part of that resurrection of the just "from the dust of the earth" (Dan.12:2).

Preterist denials of the bodily resurrection are as old as the Corinthian error, but they are no more valid today than then. To affirm that we are living in the resurrection today is, again, to take a mere part for the whole. In the resurrection there is no marriage (Luk.20:35). Family relationships as we know them will be then past a detail difficult indeed to reconcile with preterism's idea of present resurrection. To render Paul's hope of the resurrection purely spiritual renders his words and much of his persecutions (e.g., Acts 4:1-2; 23:6) meaningless. Worse, it makes him a liar (1Cor.15:15).

"But shun profane and vain babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like a cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some" (2Tim.2:16-18). In Paul's opinion, this preterist doctrine is a particularly dangerous one.

Preterism & 2 Peter 3:8

It has been suggested (by preterists) that it is inconsistent or rather gratuitous to appeal to 2Pet.3:8 to explain the "delay" in Christ's return. "With the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day." But it must be noted that this is Peter's own explanation. The preterist argues that since Christ spoke of the "nearness" of His coming it must be that He has already come. The scoffers whom Peter addressed argued that the same evidence indicated that He will not come at all. And it is Peter's answer that leads us to think in terms of God's view of time. "For God, it's not been long at all!" This is an entirely legitimate argument. It has inspired apostolic endorsement.

Preterism & Matthew 24

Mention of Mat.24:26-27 has already been made, that Jesus warns us against those who come to us and say that He has already returned. But there is more in the Olivet discourse that could be noted briefly here. That in the Olivet discourse Jesus has a close eye to the events of A.D. 70 is clear. But that it is exhausted there is not at all clear. The issue at hand is the the destruction of the temple, yes, but also the "coming" of Christ & "the end of the age." The disciples were clearly wanting to know of Jesus' return to them. This He had promised them (Jn.14:3), and they wanted to know more about it. Against that backdrop it would be difficult to limit Jesus' "coming" language to the events of A.D. 70; indeed, it would seem to render Jesus' reply misleading. To refer it exclusively to the destruction of Jerusalem is just too much special pleading. It would never be the first reading of the passage, and for this reason alone, the preterist interpretation has never been very convincing. The first and most natural way of reading the passage is not likely the wrong one.

Similarly, talk of great cosmic disturbances involving the sun, moon, and stars would appear relatively meaningless and / or misleading if limited to the events of Jerusalem.

Similarly, the danger to "all flesh" (Mat.24:22) is too broad a statement to restrict it to Jerusalem. The preterist admits as much when he comes to v.30 the "mourning" of "all flesh," for the preterist, is global in significance.

One more. In Mat.24:21 Jesus cites Dan.12:1, and Dan.12:2 explicitly establishes the time frame as that of physical resurrection "from the dust of the earth." To say this refers to this day of spiritual resurrection just will not do.

Therefore, the traditional understanding of Mat.24 as refering to a literal and visible return of Christ to the earth, "immediately after the tribulation of those days" is the correct one. It speaks, of a yet to be experienced time of danger and trouble which is of a piece with and foreshadowed in the events of A.D. 70 (vv.15-22), a day of false teachers and apostasy and even supernatural phenomena (vv.23-25) and false announcements that Christ has already come (vv.26-28), following which Christ will return "on the clouds with power and great glory" (vv.29-31).

Conclusion

So yes, Christ came. Yes His Kingdom was established with Him. Yes, He came in judgment in A.D. 70. And yes, that was a great milestone in the progressive manifestation of His kingdom. And yes, He is still coming. He remains the object of our most blessed hope.

Reformer's picture

As a full preterist plus, I must agree with this dispensationalist on one point -- A.D. 70 was certainly a coming of Jesus, but not Jesus' so-called "second coming."

Why not? This is where I disagree with him. As I've mentioned before on this web site and during my presentation at TruthVoice 2005, because "second coming" terminology is non-scriptural and an unscriptural concept in that it falsely limits the many comings (plural) of Jesus to only two (or three or any) times -- something the Bible clearly does not do and actually teaches otherwise.

The Bible also never uses "last coming" or "final coming/return" language, and for good reasons. If I'm wrong on this, I'd appreciated some legitmate, scholarly, and SCRIPTURAL correction.

Blessings,

John Noe

NB9M's picture

A brave and honest question, John. I feel comforted that I'm not alone in asking it.

Heretofore, I haven't seen a legitmate, scholarly, and SCRIPTURAL example from these fine folks.

For His Kingdom,
-Brad

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chrisliv's picture

Well, John,

You say you agree and you disagree with the Dispensational article writer...

For you to say that there are "good reasons" why Christ or the New Testament writers don't use your preferred terminology is very telling. And the "good reasons" do not support your position, since the biblical language, within the New Testament, describes only a singular "Coming". Apart from the Incarnation, the New Testament knows nothing of "many comings", only the one Coming.

So, I think you arguement is one from biblical silence, and which makes a false assumption, too.

The "SCRIPTUAL" correction that you ask for is mainly found in Matthew 24, where, three times, the phrase used by our Lord is, "the Coming of the Son of Man." The singularity of that phrase, the context and imminence with reference to the soon-destruction of the Temple and the Judgment of Jerusalem is unmistakably clear.

As Preterists, we know that the timely and total fulfillment of Mat. 24 occured in 70 AD.

Matthew 24 does not at all imply two or more "the Coming of the Son of Man" events, only the one. And especially not two "the Coming of the Son of Man" events separated by 2000 or more, years.

Like you and the above article writer, I believe Gary DeMar tries to also get two or more "the Coming of the Son of Man" events from Matthew 24, i.e., one that was fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and one that still has a futuristic fulfillment, supposedly. Although this is still somewhat rare, I just don't get why anybody who calls themself a Preterist tries to hold such a position. I've heard DeMar argue that the usage of the Greek for "coming" allows for such a position, but that would obviously contradict much of the context of the New Testament.

As most anyone can see, those kind kind of arguments are exactly how a Dispensationalist argues against a Preterist, because even they can see that the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD. By definition, that kind of position is a Futurist position, not a Preterist position.

If you start with the words of our Lord regarding His own Coming, and then look at the the New Testament writers use of terms and phrases that also clearly refer to what Christ describes in Mat. 24, I think you'll see that they too describe a singular Coming that includes a series of events which demands a complete fulfillment by around 70 AD, which did, in fact, happen. Nothing more is required.

So, if you're somehow waiting for Another-"the Coming of the Son of Man", I think you're waiting for something that the Bible knows nothing about, and you may be waiting for all eternity.

Peace to you,
C. Livingstone

Reformer's picture

Dear C.,

I believe you have articulated quite well what many critics, and I myself, see as one of the major problems with how the (full) preterist position is presented by many, if not most, of its proponents. And that is, an inability or reluctance to see beyond an A.D. 70 fulfillment.

Specifically, regarding the concept of many comings, here are a few (there's more) tidbits for your further consideration:

1) Scripture clearly documents other types of comings of Jesus. They run like a thread throughout both the OT and NT.

2) Jesus told his disciples, "I will come to you" and "you will see me" (John 14: 18, 19). He did and they did. Several times after his death, Jesus came and they saw Him. These are legitimate comings of Jesus. These happened in the OT as well.

3) Several times in the OT, Jehovah God came on the clouds in judgment in a day of the Lord against Israel and other nations. And since Jesus said that all judgment was His (John 5:22), by what hermeneutic, or text, do we limit his exercise of that (in this way) to only a single occurrence? For instance, if we agree that Jesus rode the white horse of Rev. 19 in A.D. 70 (symbollically, but truly), by what hermeneutic, or text, do we say that after that riding He hitched that horse to a post never to ride it again?

3). And speaking of the book of Revelation, if we agree it was all fulfilled by A.D. 70, what is its relevance post-A.D. 70? Is it just a history lession, or principles (what ever that means)? Or, do these things (including comings) continue on post-A.D. 70? I believe a strong scriptural case can be made to support this on-going involvement and relevance of Jesus, post Revelation's complete fulfillment in A.D. 70.

FYI -- my first theological article to be published in an academic journal is on this topic. It has been reviewed, revised, and accepted by the journal's editor and committee (all premillennialists!) and is awaiting publication this fall in the "Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society." It is titled, "An Exegetical Basis for a Preterist-Idealist Understanding of the Book of Revelation." This could be a significant breakthrough.

In my opinion, it is time we preterists take off our "A.D. 70 blinders," so to speak. Or, are we afraid this will weaken our case ??? I suggest we seek truth and let the chips fall where they may.

chrisliv's picture

Well,

I figured you'd say that.

Running to the Old Testament for examples of "comings" does not strengthen your argument. The Old Testament was written by various people in different geographical areas over a period of nearly 2000 years, i.e., most of the writers never met and often described different events or prophecies relevant to their times.

But the New Testament writers, and Christ Himself, were contemporaries who knew each other. The Coming of the Son of Man articulated by them was a singular one with a soon-coming fulfillment in 70 AD.

And, Viola! All was fulfilled in 70 AD.

In the New Testament where Christ stated in very comforting terms to his disciple that "I will come to you" and "you will see me" refer neither to the several times Jesus was seen by them after His death nor to "the Coming of the Son of Man".

Those references refer to a singular event with a literal fufillment that occured in the 1st Century AD, too. But the language style used by Christ in those places is much the same as when He said, "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;" John 14:16

The singular event of "the Coming of the Son of Man" and the Giving of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost have both been fulfilled in the 1st Century AD, and they were both attested to, prophetically, in the Old Testament, too, although in more vague terms than the New Testament describes them. And even though they were to occur within the same generation as Christ's earthly ministry, they are obviously not two or more "the Coming of the Son of Man" events. So, do yourself a favor, don't confuse the two.

The New Testament bears this out with its soon-to-be-fulfilled prophetic statements. History and the New Testament attests that the Coming of the Son of Man and the Giving of the Holy Spirit were both fulfilled in the 1st Century AD. Even the Old Testament talks about the two events.

Example:

Isaiah 66:6-8, "A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies. Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children."

You see, the "Coming" of the Son of Man in 70 AD was for the purpose of Judgment on enemies of God, but the long-awaited Kingdom of God came through the Giving of the Holy Spirit on the singular Day of Pentecost, which should not be confused with a "coming". There's nothing else described in the Bible that requires fulfillment or waiting for. All is fulfilled!

So, John, your minority position and published works may become a big success, as you hope, but they will not support a Preterist position, and may only be used by Dispensationalists in an attempt to tear down the clear teaching of Christ regarding His own Coming.

Of course, that doesn't make you a bad person. I'm sure you are sincere in your position. You'd have to be, because its very weak.

Peace be with you,
C. Livingstone

Reformer's picture

Dear C.,

I must respectfully disagree with most (but not all) of your logic and conclusions re: the many comings of Christ in both the OT and NT.

And please be assured that I have no desire or need to be teaching or writing error -- just to sell lots of books or whatever. But unless some preterist can better demonstrate the error of my ways here than you or anyone else has done, to date, then here I stand I cannot do otherwise.

Malachi's picture

You are right, John, that there have been many "comings" of the Lord. But there was only one "eschatological coming," which, right or wrong, is commonly termed Christ's second coming. If you were clear about this (that there was and ever will be only one eschatological coming), then I think you would be better received.

Hey, and why are you so slow to get on board Simmons' two millennia? You of all people should be quick enough to see its truth.

NB9M's picture

Malachi:

Surely, "Coming" events peppered Old Covenant times. What typically drove the Comings was judgement. Jesus' Coming was truly unique:

- It represented Jesus as the Father, who ALONE had returned in Power and Glory

- It had covenantal signficance, and was related to the establishment of the Kingdom as well as the restoration of the Houses of Israel

- It put away Sheol death

Yet, it also represented the vindication of the Saints and the burning (by fire) of the harlot (the House of Judah.) In short: Judgement. It was a Coming of firsts, but the FINALITY of it was in the context of the persecuted Saints, the completion of the prophecies, and the ushering in of the New Covenant Promises to Israel. The FINALITY of it is not necessarily in the context that Yahweh will never declare judgement outside the gates of the Kingdom in the form of a "Coming" into the future while the Kingdom is growing.

Here's a fair reiteration of the question John asked: do we have a promise (like the rainbow promise of Noah's day) that there would never be another coming outside of Jesus' fulfillment of prophecy?

Put another way: does the postmillineal view that Revelation 20 can be extracted from the other visions (and thus cast 2000+ years into the future) be successfully countered by the revealing - from Scripture - that no more Comings past 70AD will be realized?

Fair questions, guys. Not hearing any solid answers.

For His Kingdom,
-Brad

\

Reformer's picture

Dear Malachi,

Thanks for the advice and support.

But why wasn't Jesus' birth also an "eschaological coming"?

And dittos for his coming to Saul (Paul), to John on the isle of Patmos, and his many comings and appearances to his first disciples? Why shouldn't they be consider "eschatological" as well?

And how about the coming/outpouring of the Holy Spirit? Wasn't that eschatological, too?

chrisliv's picture

Sure, John,

Your sincerity and integrity is not in doubt.

But most Preterists will not agree with you on these points.

That's OK.

If most here felt that there was any perceivable truth to your position I'm sure many of us would be happy to revise our eschatology.

And, I'm sure you'd be willing to revise your position at such a time that you perceive any truth in our more typical Preterist eschatology.

We just happen to currently see things differently right now.

But that could change, over time.

Peace to you,
C. Livingstone

mazuur's picture

"Or, are we afraid this will weaken our case ??? I suggest we seek truth and let the chips fall where they may."

Not afraid, we merely know your position in false. Concerning seeking the truth, and letting the chips fall where they may I will say this. The truth has been sought after over and over and over, and the chips have fallen. You merely refused to accept where they have fallen, because you don't like the conclusion. Maybe you are the one who needs to take off his "AD 70 blinders".

This topic has been started by you I don't know how many times now. People have demonstrated to you every time how and why you are wrong. Why do you feel this need to start the debate again and again and again?

"For instance, if we agree that Jesus rode the white horse of Rev. 19 in A.D. 70 (symbollically, but truly), by what hermeneutic, or text, do we say that after that riding He hitched that horse to a post never to ride it again?"

An argument completely based on silence. Can you not see that?

"3) And speaking of the book of Revelation, if we agree it was all fulfilled by A.D. 70, what is its relevance post-A.D. 70? Is it just a history lession, or principles (what ever that means)? Or, do these things (including comings) continue on post-A.D. 70? I believe a strong scriptural case can be made to support this on-going involvement and relevance of Jesus, post Revelation's complete fulfillment in A.D. 70."

Maybe you need to restudy what Preterism believes. We don't agree it was all *fulfilled* by A.D. 70, some prophecy was merely started in AD 70 and will never be *fulfilled*. Christ will reign forever. In His eternal reign He will always be working in creation and in mankind throughout history. Christ reigning is not a "coming of the Lord", which is what you are trying to make it. If it were, God in his word would call it such, but he does not. He calls it reigning.

Rich

-Rich

Reformer's picture

Dear Rich,

I must have missed something somewhere. Perhaps, you can help me by reiterating, in a scriptural, scholarly, and civil manner, exactly how and why I am wrong on this issue of the many comings of Christ.

Re: my comment on Rev. 19, this was not intended to be a systematic argument, merely a question for thought. A systematic argument, however, can be made, and I have done so in the journal article I mentioned.

Re: your statement that "we don't agree it was all *fulfilled* by A.D. 70" -- then that makes you a partial preterist. Am I wrong on this as well?

mazuur's picture

"I must have missed something somewhere. Perhaps, you can help me by reiterating, in a scriptural, scholarly, and civil manner, exactly how and why I am wrong on this issue of the many comings of Christ."

C'mon, those debates have taken place many times in the past on this board (not sure how many times that has to be said before you comprehend that). You seem to merely move on then pretend they didn't happen just to start them up again for debate. If you want to rehash it all again, go back and re-read them. I am not (and assume everybody else doesn't either) going to spend the next few days rehashing it all *again* for you. I for the life of me just don't understand why you insist on starting this same debate concerning this subject yet again.

"Re: your statement that "we don't agree it was all *fulfilled* by A.D. 70" -- then that makes you a partial preterist. Am I wrong on this as well?"

Not hardly! But know having just read what you said I guess you merely don't know what the difference is, which puzzles me because here you are writing an article for this upcoming journal.

I am not trying to be uncivil, but this is getting annoying. I mean this horse has been beaten to death many times over. Give it a rest already.

Rich

-Rich

Reformer's picture

Dear Rich,

With all due respect, and certainly not intending to "annoy" you further, I have no idea where or when this concept of many comings of Christ has been scripturally refuted on this site or elsewhere. Quite to the contrary, it has stood up well against those like you who oppose it.

Moreover, this is not a minor or fringe issue.

Also, I believe I well know the difference between a partial and a full preterist. If I'm wrong on this, however, perhaps you can straighten me out -- assuming this would not be too annoying for you (:-)

mazuur's picture

John,

"I have no idea where or when this concept of many comings of Christ has been scripturally refuted on this site or elsewhere. Quite to the contrary, it has stood up well against those like you who oppose it."

You know very well the issue has been hashed out on this site many times over as you were the one who started and participated in them. Don't insult my intelligence by continuing to pretend they did not take place.

Here is just one instance where you and I debated it to a small extent. One person (OSTRALOA) and Ed Stevens even talked with you about this in a restaurant one day.

http://planetpreterist.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&thold=-1&m...

"Also, I believe I well know the difference between a partial and a full preterist. If I'm wrong on this, however, perhaps you can straighten me out -- assuming this would not be too annoying for you (:-)"

yes it would, as you are merely fishing to start another debate, which I am sure will lead right back into your topic of choice, continued "comings of Christ".

As I stated before, if you want to debate this topic yet again, go re-read the ones that already took place. I just provided you above with one.

Rich

-Rich

Reformer's picture

Dear Rich,

Okay, have it your way. I've tried to interact with you on a civil and scholarly basis. But your tone and demeanor make it obvious to me (and I'm sure to some others) that you either do not know what you are talking about or your are defenseless and reacting like a cornered animal. Perhaps, it's both?

mazuur's picture

John,

"I've tried to interact with you on a civil and scholarly basis"

No, you have tried to suck me into debating this topic yet again. That is all you have done. And now, because I refuse to let you drag me into the same old debate again, you're reacting like a child who isn't getting his way.

Why do I need to debate this topic again when it has already been debated? Go read the other debates. Engaging in it again will merely provide the same arguments presented last time. How many times do you need to hear them?

I provided you with a link to the last debate I had with you on this subject. Did you go back and read it? If so, then you have my answers and position. If not, then that would be consistent with your continued denial the debates ever took place, which is clearly demonstrated in your last post, "I have no idea where or when this concept of many comings of Christ has been scripturally refuted on this site or elsewhere".

How can you sit there and state that when you know very well you and I debated this topic before? Do I need to provide the link to it again?

Concerning "you either do not know what you are talking about or your are defenseless".

One only has to follow the link I provided to see that isn't true. The fact that you know that I did (because the debate was with you, and I just provided you with a link to it), and your statement here that insinuates that I don't reveals to me plenty about your character?

I will end this discussion here and now.

Have a good sir,
Rich

-Rich

Virgil's picture

Rich,

I feel compelled to say something now...let's try to comment and discuss these issues here with respect for one another, rather than disdain. It is often a lot easier to take a demeaning aattitude rather than respectfully point out what we perceive as weaknesses in someone's argument, so let's all try to take the higher road here...

mrfullpreterist's picture

John,

How long have you held this position that you now seem to embrace and what were your reasons for considering it? Just curious.

R. Statzer

mrFOOLpreterist FKA as mrfullpreterist

Still searching to understand the Truth.

Reformer's picture

Dear R.,

How long? Since the late 1980s and the publication of my first theological book, "The Apocalypse Conspiracy" (Wolgemuth & Hyatt/Word '91).

Reasons for considering it? Seeking truth and being like a Berean -- not just accepting something because some dispie or preterist (like this next responser) says so(Acts 17:11).

mazuur's picture

WOW, this guy is in need of some serious study and understanding concerning not just the what, but the why Preterism holds and believes what it does. His write up demonstrated to me he doesn't have, nor has ever taken the time to read anything pertaining to preterism to gain an understanding it beliefs to allow him to even try to address them.

Way too much to even considering trying to address. It would be like writing a book on every sentence he wrote. Hey, what a minute. People have already written books on everything he tried to address. Maybe somebody should send him a copy of say, Max King's book "The Cross and the Parousia of Christ", and send it to him.

Rich

-Rich

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