You are hereCampaign of Intimidation and Harassment

Campaign of Intimidation and Harassment

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By Virgil - Posted on 20 May 2009

Roderick Edwards, an ex-columnist on this website has been engaged in a campaign of harassment and intimidation of other Christians for several years now. Together with Caryn Dos Santos (also known as Dee Dee Warren), they have been maliciously slandering and attacking Christians for several years now, with some personal attacks culminating in contacting the employers and managers of people involved in our conferences. Below, we present to you an e-mail sent out by Roderick Edwards (likely with the complicity of Caryn Dos Santos) to a TruthVoice 2009 speaker; Roderick Edwards copied the manager/boss of this speaker at his place of employment and copied his colleagues and other employees at his place of employment in an effort to intimidate this person out of speaking at the conference - note that this individual works in a secular environment which has virtually nothing to do with Christianity; email addresses and identities have been censored to protect the privacy of those involved.From: Roderick Edwards []

Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 1:58 AM



Subject: Speaking at "Truth Voice" Conference

Hello Mr. XXXXXX,

As I understand it, in a few days you will be speaking at a conference called "Truth Voice". I hope you realize what this group advocates.

1. That Jesus came back once & for all in or around the year AD70

2. That the resurrection of the believers happened in or around the year AD70

3. That the judgment of the wicked & righteous happened in or around the year AD70

The group with which you are going to meet are technically & etymologically called "hyper-preterists" since they go beyond (hyper) the original form & intent of the preterite (past) fulfillment views of historic Christianity.

As Christians, we can & do allow for variance within doctrine BUT there comes a point where a variance separates groups claiming to be "Christian" from actual, historic Christianity -- such as Mormonism & JWs which though they claim to be Christian, they are not accepted by historic Christianity as such. Hyper-preterism is NOT Christian.

Think of it this way, what hyper-preterism advocates is more foreign to historic Christianity than even with the soteriological variances within Christianity. That is, hyper-preterism advocates something so far afield that even soteriologically different expressions of Christianity ALL reject hyper-preterism. Whether we are looking at pre-Roman Catholic Christianity, Roman Catholicism, Greek/Eastern Orthodox, Syrian, Reformed/Protestant, Anabaptist, Modern Evangelical, & even Emergent/Postmodernism -- ALL of these have been UNITED in AFFIRMING the EXACT 3 things hyper-preterism is now denying. I'd say that is a significant difference -- a difference that DOES separate hyper-preterism from historic Christianity & makes them more akin to Mormons & JWs.

So, Mr. XXXXX I ask you to consider cancelling your appearance at that conference, even this late in the stage. Would you appear at a Mormon or JW conference & appear to validate what they advocate? If nothing else, please speak publicly at the conference that you loudly reject what hyper-preterism teaches & consider it non-Christian.

I include your colleagues in hopes that they will counsel you against validating this group. Hyper-preterist reference:

Thank you,

Roderick Edwards

KingNeb's picture

Roderick also emailed me recently. I asked him LAST May to stop emailing me and he still does.

I'm documenting his harassment here:

Virgil's picture

Yeah - I have more for you:

"I will not address the Virgil/Planet Preterist issue anymore" - Roderick Edwards, 1/20/2006

"It is true that the tactics of hyperpreterism are like the tactics of the homosexual agenda" - Roderick Edwards, 1/26/2009

"like the cowardly terrorist Vaduva is" - Roderick Edwards, 1/4/2009

"You are STILL that little punk back in Romania throwing rocks, nothing more" - Roderick Edwards, October, 2008

Jer's picture

You're going to end up on an episode of Dateline: Real Life Mysteries, dood :)

Virgil's picture

Sweet! Isn't that the one where you win $1 million?

davo's picture

Yeah, you'd think he'd shut up after this one…

"I too had a very brief affair. It took a while to figure out why this was happening… Certainly it wasn’t really about lust, as anyone who has seen me compared to my wife knows that I am a troll of a man…" – Roderick Edwards, May 18 2008


Virgil's picture

Whoa!! I don't remember this! So why the heck is he criticizing other people for having affairs???

davo's picture

It was but a minor concession on his part he was prepared to give up and use to justify in his own eyes his major rant against TH to prove the base nature of prêterism… go figure. Astounding to say the least – as for "credibility" Roderick Edwards has zip, zero and zilch.

Ed's picture

I too remember that one.


Papa is especially fond of us

SuperSoulFighter's picture

These sorts of erratic diatribes are indicative of a deterioration in Roderick's psychological and spiritual state. Associating with DeeDee Warren has that unfortunate effect in many cases. I think Roderick's biggest error was in taking himself too seriously and stepping forth as some sort of eschatological "expert" when, in reality, he was still learning to tie his exegetical shoes.

Jhedges's picture

Hey everyone I wanted to toss my my two cents in here.

This behavior is dangerous. We have seen the numerous , and by that I mean the dozens of times, he has sworn something off, then go right back to it.

His behavior I repeat again is dangerous. To write or call peoples home, their employer or even church is nothing short of "manic" .

I personally ended all corsepdonce with this person over a year ago. If he emails you, block it.

If he contancts you via postal mail,phone calls etc, record/save the information and contact the local authorites.A database of this "paranoid,stalking"behavior will be noted.
If need be put a restraining order against him.

In a nutshell, though it can be hard, just ignore him.

markedward's picture

Heck, when I mentioned Roderick in passing to my fiancée, about how he got a hold of my (and many others') email(s) and spammed me(/us) with those messages, THAT got her worried enough for her to call him a "stalker" right off the bat.

Now that I pay attention, this behavior IS nothing short of maniacal. Again, even IF (that's the key word) Roderick's eschatology is going in the right direction, his interaction-behavior is almost entirely opposite that of how the Scriptures direct us to act, and something that is just plain illegal in many states.

EWMI's picture

I've been honored by R.E. as well:

"WARNING TO CHRISTIANS:This guy is a hyperpreterist...hyperpreterists advocate 3 things:1. That Jesus came back once & for all in the 1st century.2. That the resurrection of the believers happened in the 1st century.3. That the judgment of the wicked & righteous happened in the 1st century.So, even if he sounds good on other things, keep in mind what his overall premise is about."

I cried all nite :)

Virgil's picture

Holy cow!! He has a "canned" message apparently that he is copying and pasting from one person to another!!!

Compare the paragraph you just posted to the very first paragraph from the harassing e-mail I included above.

Jer's picture

That's the same stuff in Covenant Radio's "official position" announcement. The obligatory and pervasive use of the "&" symbol betrays the author's identity.

Virgil's picture

Haha, again, the identical cut and paste, shotgun approach - obvious the work of Roderick Edwards. Thanks for pointing this out. I included it below to save it for posterity:


February 24, 2009 -- Covenant Radio has released an official position on the theological paradigm known as hyperpreterism. It is as follows:


1. Jesus came back once & for all in the year AD70
2. The resurrection of the believers happened in the year AD70.
3. The judgment of the wicked & righteous happened in the year AD70.

These 3 points are driven by an over arching premise which is that Christian interpretation & indeed basic Christian understanding has been terribly in error for over 2000 years. Some hyperpreterists even claim there has been a 2000 year conspiracy to cover up the 3 beliefs above.

Now, why is it called HYPER-preterism? The word "hyper" in the theological sense means to go beyond the original intent or scope -- so HYPER-preterism is a belief that goes beyond an original version that was simply called preterism. Traditional/Historic preteristic beliefs do see some significance in the AD70 events (See Matthew 24:1-3, Mark 13:1-3, Luke 21:5-7,20) BUT classic preterism did NOT advocate the 3 beliefs mentioned above. Thus, hyperpreterism is considered HYPER just as much as HYPER-Calvinism goes beyond the original intent & scope of traditional/historic Calvinism.

Hyperpreterism is also Heterodox...a heresy. It is NOT a heresy just because we don't like it, nor is it a heresy because it is "new", nor is it a heresy because the majority oppose it. Hyperpreterism is a heresy because it is unlike anything ever taught in the history of Christianity...from the very founding to now. Hyperpreterism is as much outside of historic Christianity as is Mormonism & Jehovah's Witnesses. Hyperpreterists often call their system: Full Preterism, Covenant Eschatology, Consistent Preterism, Fulfilled Eschatology, or a new name bandied about in attempt to make it sound more legitimate, Biblical Preterism.


The present day versions of hyperpreterism all originated in the 1970s with a man named Max King. King was a "church of Christ" minister who wrote several hyperpreterist books in the 1970-1980s. Hyperpreterism before that was mainly manifested among Universalists (people who believed no one would ultimately be condemned -- "everyone is saved"). Perhaps the most infamous group of pre-1970 hyperpreterists was a group in upstate New York in the late 1800s. This group was called the "Oneida Community" (search This group formed a commune & practiced their hyperpreterism to the extent of no longer having individual marriages but instead everyone having sexual relations with everyone else -- they thought this would be a "logical" conclusion if the resurrection is already passed & people are no longer given in marriage. (Mt 22:30)

Hyperpreterism died out and was revived again in the 1970s. Hyperpreterism is experiencing a resurgence & is beginning to show itself among the churches. Hyperpreterists typically don't (or can't) maintain their own congregations so instead, "lone ranger" hyperpreterists either try to influence existing congregations or they drop out of attending church and instead try to influence Christians.


Hyperpreterism by design is an arrogant & egotistical system -- after all it claims 2000 years worth of Christian interpretation has been MAJORLY wrong, so trying to interact with a hyperpreterist one on one will be a frustrating & futile endeavor. Hyperpreterism redefines theological terms & definitions so although a Christian may think they are having a fruitful, scriptural discussion with a hyperpreterist, you must recognize that hyperpreterism like Mormonism & Jehovah's Witnesses may use Christian sounding terms & even appeal to the Bible -- but just like those other cults -- hyperpreterism is anything but Christian.

To combat hyperpreterism you MUST keep them on the main premise -- that they are trying to tell you that God could not or would not maintain within His Church a basic & correct understanding of the end times. Don't let hyperpreterists leave this premise no matter how much they claim to want to talk about "scripture" or have an "exegetical" conversation. Premises matter and the hyperpreterist premise is faulty to the core.


Hyperpreterists will try several tactics to break down the defenses (armor) of a Christian. A couple things they will do are:

1. Claim they are only using "Sola Scriptura/Bible alone" methods
2. Claim Hyperpreterism always existed in "seed" form.
3. Claim there has never been a Church council on eschatology.
4. Claim you are unloving or mean to not accept them.
5. Attempt to get legitimate teachers/preachers to validate them.

Hyperpreterism often claims it is merely reading/interpreting the Bible as it is written. Hyperpreterists will also pit their interpretation against 2000 years of Christian interpretation by claiming they don't follow the "Creeds" (this comes from its 'church of Christ' foundation). The word Creed, in Latin simply means "belief". So, unless hyperpreterists are trying to claim they don't believe anything, they too have a "creed" -- its just that the hyperpreterist "creed" goes against everything that was ever considered Christian. Another tactic hyperpreterists try to employ under point #1 is to compare themselves with the Reformation & the Reformers like Martin Luther. The problem is, hyperpreterism would have been rejected by the Reformers as well. Hyperpreterists are more like the "radical reformation" (look up on which wanted to chuck everything & start over. The Reformers & especially Martin Luther, rejected the radicals as heretics.

Lastly on this point, hyperpreterists will often try to claim that Luther was teaching something never before taught in the Church -- this is categorically untrue. Luther was merely re-espousing long advocated beliefs that are found more than just in "seed" form both in the Bible & in historic Christian interpretation. (see Augustinianism for example).

Point #2 in hyperpreterists tactics is one used by so-called "conservative hyperpreterists". They want to pretend there are traces of hyperpreterism all throughout Christian history. What they do is find a quote by some theologian that sounds like preterism or hyperpreterism & then tell you it is a "seed" of their belief even if the overall premise & position of the theologian is clearly in opposition to hyperpreterism. The hyperpreterists attempt to find "seeds" of hyperpreterism under every little theological rock and it is merely wishful thinking. No serious theologian in history has ever advocated what hyperpreterists that in itself doesn't make hyperpreterism wrong, but it does make their claim to find "seeds" a dishonesty.

Point #3 is an oft repeated tactic of hyperpreterist followers who have picked up this line from hyperpreterist teachers -- most hyperpreterist followers (not all) have scant knowledge of Christian history.

First, the use of this tactic seems to miss the point as to why councils were called. Church councils were not called to impose a new belief on the Church but rather councils were primarily called only when a new heresy rose up. So, the reason there has never been a need for a specific council addressing eschatology is because there has never been a heresy divergent enough from the traditional teaching on eschatology. The point is, even with variances among the existing eschatological models -- ALL of the eschatological models AGREE on EXACTLY the 3 beliefs that hyperpreterism denies. This is significant.

Point #4 is used when all else fails. Hyperpreterists will begin to claim anyone who opposes them must "hate" them & want them to "go to hell" -- even if their opponents never use these words. Hyperpreterists will play the victim & persecuted in attempt to gain sympathy. Don't buy it.

Point #5 is used more by the hyperpreterist "leaders". They will try to get well known, respected teachers/preachers to say hyperpreterism is not a heresy & then they will cite these people in their defense. I've seen hyperpreterists do with with people such as Gary DeMar & James Jordan. Hyperpreterists will also attempt to join legitimate groups such as ETS or a local seminary & use this as "proof" they are valid.


The conclusion is, hyperpreterism is just as NON-Christian as is Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses. We should treat hyperpreterism & hyperpreterists the same way we treat Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses. That doesn't mean we have to "hate" them -- as Christians really shouldn't hate anyone -- but we most certainly should not go around acting like hyperpreterists are Christian brothers & sisters. And we should be suspect of everything they "teach" as it is all tinged with their hyperpreterism (hyperpreterism ISN'T just about eschatology -- it affects everything as all of our beliefs affect our other beliefs). Remember, Mormonism also claims to follow Jesus, even to the point of promoting itself as "Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints". Don't be fooled. Hyperpreterism is a heresy & anyone advocating it in principle or by name is a heretic. Pray for them to be released from this horrible error.

It is the position of Covenant Radio, including its host, that this paradigm of hyper preterism needs to be called for what it is. It is a heterodox movement and position. We realize that this will annoy some people that are followers of this theological movement and that is not the intention of this official statement. The intention is to make clear to all the listeners and potential guests where Covenant Radio sees this paradigm and why it is to be rejected as a viable position eschatologically.

KingNeb's picture

Never got a response from Bill Hill. Apparently my money and my faith is worthless.

SuperSoulFighter's picture

Although I definitely espouse all three of the "Hyperpreterist" core tenets of faith and by no means shy away from any label associated with those beliefs, I do feel that the applicability of the "hyper" epithet is really only evident in the occasional attack of adult ADD I experience wading through this drivel!

markedward's picture

Roderick deceptively obtained my email address and through stuff my way a number of months ago. I emailed him back asking him to not email me again, unless I specifically invited him to. He sent at least one (maybe two?) more emails within just a couple of weeks. The way I solved the problem was to simply hit the "Report Spam" button, and now I don't have to worry about him even appearing in my inbox. I don't even know if he has emailed me since then, since I don't ever go into the Spam box.

Virgil's picture

He does this to everyone Mark: spams people by the hundreds, calls people in the middle of the night, calls people at work to report they are preterists to their boss. Can anyone out there actually say with a straight face that this is normal behavior, especially for someone who calls himself a Christian?

What is even worse is that after doing all this, then he acts all appalled at the reaction he gets from people, running back crying in Dee Dee's arms for consolation:

What, me? I never did this!? Roderick harassing people? No way! He is a stand up guy! All these quotes are lies!! I mean, they ARE my own words...I asked them to delete them, but nobody is suppose to see them again!! Damn you hyperists for objecting to the crap I've been throwing at you for years, how dare you speak up??

SuperSoulFighter's picture

Both Roderick and DeeDee seem to have obsessive/compulsive tendencies and are border-line schizophrenic (on the wrong side of that border) :D! I'd say their religion has done them no favors! They are blind to their own confusion and self-deception. They have my pity and - at times - my scorn. That's the best I can do!


chrisliv's picture


Poor Roderick,

He's afflicted with the same religio-obsessive-compulsive tendency which prompted the Pharisees to have Christ and some of the Apostles handed over to the Roman State, to be crucified.

He is a good example of a bad pattern.

Pray for him.

Peace to you all,
C. Livingstone

Islamaphobe's picture

One thing I much appreciate about this site is Virgil's Christian humility and the fact that it is shared by quite a few other posters here. Humility is a trait that I have noticed seems to absent in much of the work of Roderick Edwards and Dee Dee Warren. In my long lifetime, the "Christians" who have been the biggest turnoffs to me are those who are certain that they have all the answers and that those who disagree with them are heretics and EVILdoers who deserve to be denounced. Incidentally, I "credit" Roderick with having played a key role in causing me to abandon the Preterist Cosmos site a couple of years back in the Virgil the notorious copyrighter incident. And I am not impressed by those who argue that the folks who post here are heretics because they vary from the teachings of the past. I have really taken to heart the passage in Daniel 12:4 that knowledge (of Scripture) will increase. To me that is a very long-term prognostication and is very relevant to today's understanding of Scripture.

John S. Evans

Jamie's picture

The funny thing is, the more he does stuff like this and keeps doing it, the more attention he is bringing to himself. (and the fact that he s a former 'Preterist')

demario's picture

RE pulled something similar with me. He tried to blackmail me by threatening to go to American Vision supporters. He was going to tell them that I am a supporter of full preterism because I will not denounce it publicly as heresy. I told him to contact away. These are the tactics of a child. Ignore him. He's not worth the key strokes.

Virgil's picture

Gary, this does not surprise me. You are lucky your family and your friends are not being targeted either - he called my mother in law late at night and scared the heck out of her.

Virgil's picture

I will keep my own words to a minimum, but this is an email I got this morning from Caryn Dos Santos (aka Dee Dee Warren). Her and Roderick (Bonnie and Clyde) have been using their respective websites to mock, slander and personally attack anyone and everyone who disagrees with them, from Gary DeMar to Sam Frost and many other friends of mine. They are much like drive-by shooters who spray the crowd with bullets quickly driving away and hiding behind a facade of anonymous statements thrown out to cause as much damage as possible; all they do is talk about other people all day long. Apparently using her real name (which is what she does all day long to other people) on this website is now illegal and a violation of privacy according to Caryn. I don't know how that works and I am still scratching my head, but here comes Bonnie (oh, and if you send me threats in email, they will be made public, regardless of you threatening me not to make them public):

From: Dee Dee Warren []
Subject: remove my personal information from your website
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 23:49:38 -0400

Virgil, please do not write me back. This email is to put you on notice that you are potentially in violation of your state's cyberstalking laws as amended in 2003. Remove my name from your site, or I will seriously consider calling the Xenia Police Department to report this incident and include information about your past behaviour. You are well aware that you do not have my consent to violate my privacy, that I feel threatened, that I have reported these incidents to both the Florida Police (and FBI) in the past, and that I have suffered and continue to suffer severe mental distress.

Again, do not write me back. Remove the information. If you persist and escalate as you did in the past, I will pursue my rights under the law. Also, if you post this personal email which contains private information that I communicated to you when you last pulled this stunt I will consider that as further violation of my privacy. You do not have my permission to post information that I never publicly revealed and took great steps to keep it that way, nor do you have permission to post this email. Further, doing so would reasonably be construed as incitement for others to continue this behaviour which is specifically addressed in Ohio law.

I am also fully prepared to retain Ohio counsel if needed. I want no further contact with you, and this will be the last email I send you. And so that you can remove your lie from your site which is part and parcel of your attempts to intimidate me, I don't even know what Miami professor you are referring to, much less be "complicit" in anything.

To be clear. Do not write me or contact me by any means. Stop publishing personal information that was not given to you by me or you are well aware that I have told you is private. You are aware that your past behaviour in this front, which resulted in posts of my home address at the time, caused me significant emotional distress which is well documented by medical records and caused a reasonable perception of being threatened, and that your renewing of this behaviour is awakening the same reactions.

I wish for both of us to live our personal lives in the privacy we both wish. I do not wish to intrude upon your privacy by having to seek help from the authorities. That is why I am writing, to resolve this before it ever has to come to that. Do not intrude upon my privacy.


Jamie's picture

mental distress??? I could say the SAME thing about these two. As the wife of the person they attack and slander and lie about probably more than anyone else, I have been probably more stressed out about this stuff than any other person out there. And I don't get how its OK for them to do this same exact stuff they accuse you of. I don't get it at all.

Starlight's picture


Talk about sick people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.

I believe we may have certifiable's here on our hands.

Kind of reminds me of the Old Clint Eastwood movie; “play misty for me”.

markedward's picture

The ironic thing I find in all of this is this:

I visited the CARM forum once (big mistake), because a discussion there caught my attention. This was my first direct interaction with Roderick. Now, even though "Mark Edward" is my real name, and I signed up using the username "markedward" (as here), Roderick was slandering me, and one of the things he tried to use was that other preterists use pseudonym usernames on the internet to protect their identities. That's right, me using my real name as my username is, according to Roderick, just as bad as those dastardly preterists who "hide" behind pseudonyms...

Oh wait? "Dee Dee Warren" is a pseudonym? And Roderick is now close friends with her? Hm... where has his conviction gone in his hatred of pseudonym usernames?

Ed's picture

I wonder about his continued use of "Anonymous" to go on sites that he has been banned from - wouldn't that classify as a pseudonym, of sorts?


Papa is especially fond of us

chrisliv's picture


It's a bit of a wonder when it comes to imbedded messages.

I wonder if it is a lack of semantic attention or more of a subconscious slip in the communication patterns of emotively discordant people.

Notice the three places that Dee Dee demands that no response is elicited:

"Virgil, please do not write me back."

"Again, do not write me back."

"To be clear. Do not write me or contact me by any means."

Now notice the imbedded messages:

"Virgil,... write me back."

"Again,... write me back."

"To be clear... write me back... by any means."

Peace to you all,
C. Livingstone

Sam's picture

I think we can all document harassment from these two and the constant, daily articles. However, when a person says they are "called of God" to do what they do (and she did say this on the radio interview), then everything they do, every tactic, is valid and God-approved. It is no longer opinion. God is telling them to do this. This is their mission from God. They have divine sanction.

Virgil's picture

I made a similar observation before - when it does become a divine directive, then it's impossible to deal with someone with that kind of mindset. i.e. west vs. middle-east jihadists.

Jer's picture

The conclusion is, hyperpreterism is just as NON-Christian as is Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses...we most certainly should not go around acting like hyperpreterists are Christian brothers & sisters.

So, preterists are not Christians, which one may conclude then means they are not saved or "not elect."

This person was apparently "elected" prior to preterism, then "unelected" while a preterist, and finally "reelected" after preterism. God apparently requested a recount. Or perhaps it's not God who is telling them to do this; it could be that breakfast burrito acting up.

mazuur's picture

"This person was apparently "elected" prior to preterism, then "unelected" while a preterist, and finally "reelected" after preterism"

oh, now you're a devil right along with Virgil.



Jer's picture

Devil? I don't know. But I do have it on good authority that I am both a "fraud" and a "jerk." ;)

mazuur's picture


Sorry, I got you confused with Ransom's post at (He has the first post on the thread).

I would like to hear his comments on whether or not he was still part of the "Elect" while he was a Preterist since all preterist as outside of Christ. I loved your comment. According to his theology, he was part of the "elect", then he wasn't, and now he is again.

When are people going to wake up to whom the elect are? They are ISRAEL people, and it was a first century occurrence just as the first-fruits were. Of course I understand why they hang onto it.



Barry's picture

Exactly Sam!!!!!!
The need to be right is the need of the ego to self preserve from its position of self determination from a perceived independent human potential.
In biblical times it was known as "self righteousness".

In fact this is the mechanism in which God "hardened" as he wished to. He threatened the ego. He did it with Pharaoh and with apostate Israel.

The outward construct of their ego was the temple made with hands. It defined "who they were". Christianity was seen to threaten that image, so the stoned Steven to death.

Persecution multiplied when their ego was threatened when uncircumcised where baptised. Once again their hearts were hardened because their egos were threatened. The the hardened go on the attack.

It is a simple process really and people are usually moving in one direction or the other. That being love and grace or attack whatever culture allows that attack to be.

Love and grace leads toward being "God defined" IN AND THROUGH love and grace. Fundamentalism and hence self definition leads to attack.


we are all in this together

Virgil's picture

In fact this is the mechanism in which God "hardened" as he wished to. He threatened the ego.

And it so happened that all these attacks started when Roderick Edwards was kicked off and suspended as a columnist off this website - his ego was hurt and his hate has been driving this attitude for several years.

JL's picture

Then why did you kick him off in the first place?


JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

Ed's picture

JL, if memory serves me, Roderick kept making the accusation that Virgil was "an universalist." Virgil kept telling him that was not true, but that he allowed everyone to post here as long as they were respectful. Roderick persisted and actually took it up a notch. It got to the point where he was saying that Virgil and the other "universalists" were not even Christians. That's when he was banned.

Not long after that, he came to the realization that you can't be a preterist and not be a "universalist," in spite of the fact that many preterists are not. As this is an arguable point, and I believe Jack Scott handled it so well at TV2009, we can all have fellowship with one another, while still disagreeing on points here and there along the way. Roderick was/is not able to do that. It seems to be "his way or the highway."


Papa is especially fond of us

JL's picture

That's what I remember (along with Virgil's membership in the McLaren cult :) ). The attacks started first, then Virgil kicked Ahab off, then the attacks escalated.

Virgil was the great white whale. The whale grew to be preterism itself.


JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

chrisliv's picture


Some interesting comments, Barry.

Were you aware that the OT Temple was a literal figure of a man, viewed from above?

Here's a URL to a quick comparison between Soloman's and Herod's Temple. This source is obviously a Jewish or Christian Zionist of some sort (since it suggests that a Third Temple, with it's animal sacrifices, should be build). But it points out the obvious structural differences and their potential implications:

Peace to you,
C. Livingstone

Virgil's picture

I've seen that before - it's fascinating. I am not sure if we are reading too much into the layout of the building or if there is something really there.

chrisliv's picture


God was apparently happy enough with the Tabernacle.

But, like Israel's demand for a king, God let them have a stationary Temple.

Like it seems with you, I don't spend much time with this kind of esoteric or archaic stuff, except to relate some of it to the obvious implication of how it might have prefigured what is now fulfilled in Christ's fully-established Kingdom, through the Holy Spirit.

But, here's a more in-depth page URL from that same site:

It occurred to me as I briefly viewed it that John Evans might even get something out of it, in how it relates the Temple Man to John's book and emphasis with Daniel's World Empire chronology.

Of course, we Preterists get how Ezekiel and other of the OT prophets spoke of a Third Temple that is fulfilled in the Body of Christ, and not some futuristic stone Temple made with hands.

But, sadly, most Statists and Futurists are still waiting for the words of Isaiah to be externally imposed during a so-called Millennial Utopia:

"Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it. Many people shall come and say, 'Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths.' For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He shall judge between the nations, and shall rebuke many people; they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore."

You see, they just cannot yet get in step with Christ's Kingdom, because it is either not in their hearts or they have been mentally conditioned by the World System and its State-Incorporated Church that it is Caesar who is LORD over the Earth in their present reality.

Here's a URL to this sad and pervasive mentality, as it relates to the Temple, literally and figuratively:

Peace to you,
C. Livingstone

KingNeb's picture

it works if you're a transformer. hahaha.

just kidding.

JL's picture

Works for me. I also find those toys fascinating.

Missed you at TV. Missed Sam too, but that's another story.


JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

JL's picture


Doubly fascinating since I've been saying for a well over a year now that Genesis 1:1-2:4 details the dedication of God's original temple, God's people.



JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

Barry's picture

Were you aware that the OT Temple was a literal figure of a man, viewed from above?

Here's a URL to a quick comparison between Soloman's and Herod's Temple. This source is obviously a Jewish or Christian Zionist of some sort (since it suggests that a Third Temple, with it's animal sacrifices, should be build). But it points out the obvious structural differences and their potential implications:
End quote.

That is interesting stuff though I have not read it through completely.
No I was not aware that anyone was purposing that exact point (which is very interesting indeed).

My own thoughts on the temple and the ego:

Act 17:16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly GIVEN TO IDOLATRY.
Act 17:17 THEREFORE disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

Act 17:24 God that made the world and ALL THINGS THEREIN,
{THIS IS UNIVERSAL CREATION INCLUDING COVENANT ASPECTS} seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth
Act 17:25
as though he needed any thing,
{Hence then the independent human potential sees a God in NEED}
seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
{Since man whether seen in covenantal aspects or not is given all that he or she has then there is in truth no independent human potential. However as a matter of a developing consciousness which relies on history, the independent human potential has a sense of validity under the precedence of types and figures of thing to come which itself is the absence of a fulfilled revelation.}

Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God,
{quoting from their own poets}
we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven BY ART AND MAN'S DEVICE.
{Once again a reflection of man's own self perceived image of himself}
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God INTO AN IMAGE made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

It was this "self" this "soul" that was lost and destroyed in the completion of a fulfilled revelation (historically speaking).
Of course idolatry, which is a reflection of the ego, still exists, but not in the same context or setting as before. It would be like building an new temple. Such is meaningless and we are slowly learning to adapt to the "age" we live in.

The ego often relates to threats in terms of self preservation. Self preservation kicks in with the inevitable "need to be right". In being right the image is maintained. In being wrong the image is in danger.

The ego can move from one belief system to the other when it needs too (for various reasons). This is why historically speaking even in Christendom the persecuted eventually become the persecutors. The ego quickly re-adapts to its new image variance. We then have little difficulty in condemning what we used to be as long as it upholds what we think we presently are.

The message of the bible is that the ego has no final determination on who we really are as God defined in love and grace.

The problem of course is navigating between our own issues and those of others around us. While there are general principles in place, there are few details cut in stone. We are going to have problems and working through them is not going to be easy. Then there are those who just will not listen to any type of reason and in essence are very dangerous people. Yes, if possible live at peace with all men. We notice the slight ambiguity of the statement I think.

Personally speaking, I'm not one to take a lot of nonsense crap from others. Some of this is my own programing I think, but some of it may not be. Some of it is a genuine inner thought that people ought to know better as it does not really have to be this way.

Just some thoughts

we are all in this together

Jhedges's picture

For those that have known Roderick over the last few years there is a obvious pattern or character trait that shows.

First he makes friends. Then he joins their group/website/blog etc etc. Then a disagreement comes up. Then Roderick goes on the attack,slandering and trying to destroy people. He backs it up with his Martin Luther quotes. LIes, accusations then come out and the friendship/relationship etc is gone and he picks a new view on religon and the process starts all over.

I write this not to mock anyone but to show a simple pattern that anyone on the web can see.

Whats going to happen? The above will happen with Dee Dee and its only a matter of time. And im gonna be honest here, Dee Dee I believe argues and debates with pretty good intentions most of the time. She shows a lot more class than Roderick.This will be the breaking point of her and Rods relationship, and by that i mean friendship.She wont take the steps he does, and that will cause the rift.

Roderick if your reading this I would advise you to let the anger go. You have burnt all bridges with just about everyone and Dee Dee is you last place you can go. If that ends I suspect one of two things will happen. You will mediate and reflect on the past few years and only by the grace of God will He humble you.

The other thing that may happen is that your going to reject Christianity all together.

I pray the last one does not happen.

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