You are hereThe Alexandrian School and CG

The Alexandrian School and CG

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By large-hammer - Posted on 15 February 2004

by Marcus Booker
Proponents of so-called "Comprehensive Grace" would have you believe that their view is the majority perspective among the ancient schools; they relegate eternal conscious torment (ECT) to the Latins (read Roman Catholic) and only admit of one annihilationist school, claiming the rest as universalist. They appeal particularly and most strongly to the Alexandrians who, in places, seemed to reflect and speculate along the lines of universal redemption. Below is a miscellany of quotations that cast doubt on their confident assertions.Proponents of so-called "Comprehensive Grace" would have you believe that their view is the majority perspective among the ancient schools; they relegate eternal conscious torment (ECT) to the Latins (read Roman Catholic) and only admit of one annihilationist school, claiming the rest as universalist. They appeal particularly and most strongly to the Alexandrians who, in places, seemed to reflect and speculate along the lines of universal redemption. Below is a miscellany of quotations that cast doubt on their confident assertions."John, too, clearly teaches the differences of sins, in his larger epistle. He does so in these words: 'if any man sees his brother sin a sin that is not unto death, he will ask and he will give him life.'" (Clement of Alexandria Ante-Nicene Fathers, v.2 p. 362)

"Who, then, is not amazed at the exceeding majesty of the Holy Spirit, when he hears that he who speaks a word against the son of man may hope for forgiveness, but that he who is guilty of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit has no forgiveness--either in the present world or in that which is to come?" (Origen, Ante-Nicene Fathers v.4 p. 252) Notice that Origen here admits of a sin for which there is no forgiveness.

"It is not on account of the superiority of the Spirit over the Son that the blasphemy against the Spirit is a sin beyond discipline and pardon. Rather, it is because there is pardon for the imperfect. But for those who have tasted the heavenly gift and have been made perfect, there remains no plea or prayer for pardon." (Theognostus of Alexandria, Ante-Nicene Fathers, v. 6 p. 156)

"After these points, also, the apostolic teaching is that the soul, having a substance and life of its own, shall, after its departure from the world, be rewarded according to its deserts, being destined to obtain either an inheritance of eternal life and blessedness, if its actions shall have procured this for it, or to be delivered up to eternal fire and punishments, if the guilt of its crimes shall have brought it down to this." (Origen, Ante-Nicene Fathers, volume 4. p. 240) Notice that the aforesaid (concerning eternal rewards and punishments) Origen calls the "apostolic teaching."

"All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery." (Clement of Alexandria, ANF v. 2. p. 580) These words are as contrary to CG as words can be! Yet the CGers would have you think that Clement of Alexandria was the father (or at least proponent) of their doctrine.

"However, even the resurrected body of those who are destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire.

We find in the prophet Isaiah, that the fire with which each one is punished is described as his own; for he says, 'walk in the light of your own fire, and in the flame which ye have kindled.' By these words it seems to be indicated that every sinner kindles for himself the flame of his own fire, and is not plunged into some fire which has been already kindled by another...." (Origen, ANF, v.4 pp. 294-295) In the first paragraph above, Origen says, in essence, that because the wicked's resurrection body is immortal/incorruptible, his everlasting punishment never ends.

"To those who say that no one is delivered by Jesus to the tormentors, it must be said, 'Please, explain to us, good sirs, who is the king who delivered the wicked servant to the tormentors?'" (Origen, ANF, v.9 p. 504)

"But we defend our own procedure, when we say that our object is to reform the human race, either by the threats of punishments which we are persuaded are necessary for the whole world, and which perhaps are not without use to those who are to endure them; or by the promises made to those who have lived virtuous lives, and in which are contained the statements regarding the blessed termination which is to be found in the kingdom of God, reserved for those who are worthy of becoming His subjects." (Origen, ANF v.4 p. 501). Notice that Origen defends the legitimacy (as opposed to shallowness) of using threats of punishment as a precedure through which to proclaim the gospel.

"From what has been said, it will be manifest to intelligent hearers how we have to answer the following: 'All the rest of the race will be completely burnt up, and they alone [Christians] will remain.' It is not to be wondered at, indeed, if such thoughts have been entertained by those amongst us who are called in Scripture the 'foolish things' of the world, and 'base things,' and 'things which are despised,' and 'things which are not,'..." (Origen, ANF, v.4 p. 550)

"...and let them rest assured that punishment shall be inflicted on the wicked, and rewards shall be bestowed upon the righteous, by Him who deals with every one as he deserves, and who will proportion His rewards to the good that each has done, and to the account of himself that he is able to give. And let all men know that the good shall be advanced to a higher state, and that the wicked shall be delivered over to sufferings and torments, in punishment of their licentiousness and depravity, their cowardice, timidity, and all their follies." (Origen, ANF v.4 p. 659)

My above quotations were for instruction purposes only, to familiarize people with the saying of the Alexandrians. I am not here debating between ECT and annihilation. Rather, I am showing that the claims of CG proponents about the Alexandrian school's dogma are inaccurate.

Ed's picture

Well, first of all, it was Phillip Schaff who made the claims that you are attempting to refute. Secondly, if these statements represent the full opinion of the Alexandrian school, then the Roman Catholics sure as heck didn't need to condemn Origen's universalism, did they?

I have never claimed that my beliefs rested on anybody's opinion of soteriology. I have made the point, based on Schaff's writing, that universalism was/is not some kind of "new theology" invented by CGers. In fact, while I am on this point, I have made it clear again and again (although Marcus refuses to acknowledge it) that not all CGers are universalists (including probably Tim King - based on his articles on the subject). I AM A UNIVERSALIST. And I base my views on scripture, not on the beliefs of the Futurists at the Alexandrian school.

This is a non-issue Marcus. Many times preterists quote Christians of the past who have made preteristic statements. I could use this same tactic by quoting these same folks, and showing them to be futurists. What is the point? It means nothing to someone who believes in scripture only. Opinion is exactly that, opinion.

One last thing...I wrote two short articles that I submitted several days ago to this website. Due to the fact that there were 3 articles before them, I have had to wait for them to be uploaded to the site. My opinions, devoid of any Alexandrian fathers quotes, are laid out in those articles. One of those articles is a kind-of float it out there kind of article. What I am afraid of is that, unlike the site I usually frequent, where friends and colleagues help us work through issues, the mini-popes here would rather slash and burn. However, I stand by my opinions and my articles. Once they are published, you'll have a better understanding of what I believe.

My hope is that many will see through the hype and lies and realize the truth that is found in the "Death of Death".

ed

Papa is especially fond of us

large-hammer's picture

Ed,

I want you to know something. Contrary to what you might think, I both love and respect you. Granted...sometimes I think you tend to go off the deep end. And...I wonder if you haven't succumbed to some doctrines as an over-reaction against hypocritical "orthodoxy."

Also, I want you to know that I listen carefully to what you have to say and carefully consider it. Though I may seem fully settled, I am not. I still have questions in my mind concerning some passages that CGers use in support of their doctrine.

In addition, if CG were true, I would not be like the brother of the prodigal son. There is nothing objectionable about CG if that's what God has truly decided to do. I would rejoice and count a more thorough (or comprehensive) restoration even greater glory on the part of God. I just don't see that He has, in fact, revealed Himself as having decided as you say.

Of course, there are some things that I cannot ignore, like unforgiveable sin or like those outside the New Jerusalem. You might relegate the significance of these things to a.d. 70 (and the wicked of that time), but I view them as a specific outworking of God's general principles and perpetual mode of operation.

I will try to do better to distinguish between your personal beliefs and CG. From what I have read elsewhere on CG, you are not alone in your Universalism. But I won't confound the two if I can help it.

As for the Alexandrians (and the fathers in general), I think they can be used and abused. Historical precedent for a wide range of doctrines can be sifted from them. Maybe what these men say means nothing to you (because of your sola scriptura position), but you are the one who first used them. I only resorted to them because you opened that door. And yes...opinion is opinion.

PlanetPreterist should be a place where we can discuss and debate in an academically free type setting. I'm certainly not advocating that we change that. Yet we, on the other hand, have to be careful about what we let "kind-of float out there." Ideas have consequences. Like I said before, if we are exploring and searching, we need to make that point clear; we need to employ hypothetical language.

The way CG has seemed to present itself has been as a form of dogma, not exploration, musing, reflection, or questioning.

Yes. The "Death of Death" is important. Yet even Owen didn't hyper-extend that belief into realms where it was non-applicable (Is death gone in every sense and on every level?). I think Idealism is important to consider. It's also what I called individual eschatology. Tim Martin called it Preterism (E). The "E" stands for experiential.

If you trace it out, there is still a temple to be destroyed; there is still death to be swallowed up in life. And the level on which this happens is on the individual level. If so, then what occurred historically concerning the filling up of the law of Moses in Christ needs to recur mystically in us. In time, this view will develop further; we'll all explore its implications.

Marcus

preteristdave's picture

"Of course, there are some things that I cannot ignore, like unforgiveable sin or like those outside the New Jerusalem."

Marcus, I suggest reading Davo's and Barry's recent response concerning the identity of the unforgiveable sin on the CG 2 thread. Notice that Jesus said the unforgiveable sin would not be forgiven during the Old Covenant age or the New Covenant age but He never said it was an unredeemable sin. Not all of OC Israel physicall died during the DoJ and thus they physically lived during the NC age but still were not able to believe and have a relationship with God. Quite often there is a big difference between the two, forgiveness of sins and redemption of sins.

Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you (a believer). 15 "But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?" 22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

Luke 1:77 To give to His people the KNOWLEDGE of salvation By the forgiveness of their sins

John 20:23 "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'
(IS THE INHERITANCE THE SAME AS FORGIVENESS OF SINS? THE TWO SEEM TO BE SEPERATE HERE. FORGIVENESS, I BELIEVE, HAS MORE TO DO WITH THE STATUS OF THE RELATIONSHIP (ETERNAL LIFE; JN 17:3) BETWEEN THE BELIEVER AND GOD.)

Romans 4:7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(WERE THESE BELIEVERS NOT REDEEMED?)

Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who BELIEVES in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

Redemption of sins, on the other hand, was made for all men through the salvation of OC Israel.

Hebrews 9:15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the REDEMPTION of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

David Timm

davo's picture

Dave, some really good thoughts here :)

I've just posted some thoughts on "forgiveness" over on the CGII forum.

davo

preteristdave's picture

If you have not already, please view my long comment on the main page of your last article.

David Timm

davecollins's picture

Dear David, Greetings from sunny Florida! I'm here at our annual business seminar.The flight here was about 3 hours in which I reread Zechariah, Daniel, Malachi, parts of Isaiah and Revelation, and Romans. My goal was to search the Scriptures to prove/disprove CG. Obviously 3 hrs. is not very long to study, however I did keep running across the theme of repentance or "turning from the transgression" in order to live.
Nowhere could I find a passage which teaches a relational or spatial salvation without faith and repentance,although I found many which teach the distinguishing truths of obey/live vs. disobey/perish.
Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting abhorrence.
Malachi 4: 1f For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave then neither root or branch.

Having read all the comments on the 2 CG threads and after visiting Davos site ....I would say it is possible that God saves everyone by Jesus Christ ultimately, but the clear teaching ,IMO is everlasting judgement to each rebellious soul. Of course, I will keep looking, but I wanted to let you know where I was on CG.
See you soon..your friend and brother, dave

preteristdave's picture

Dave, did you fly there yesterday? We've been having a lot of rain here. Today we're finally getting some sun. I hope you enjoy your trip!

"Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting abhorrence."

Dave, the verse prior to this one sets the context...Daniel's people. Your may be wondering then "What about the Gentiles?".

Revelation 20:13 And the SEA gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

Jesus was born under the law/OC world (Gal 4:4) and after He died and overcame spiritual death's power He was resurrected out of hades/sheol (Acts 2:31) and became the firstborn (Col 1:18)(firstfruit) of NC Israel. From Christ's resurrection came the rest of the firstfruits (Eph 4:8). From there came the rest of the harvest of the OC world (Rom 11:31; Mt 13:38). Basically what I'm saying is the Bible is mainly Israel's story. It is about her salvation, resurrection, judgment, and redemption...and how through her redemption salvation were to the ends of the earth (Isa 49). Jesus is Israel's Messiah. Concerning Israel's judgement in 70AD...in the OT after God judges a nation He then brings restoration to it. In like manner this happened to Israel after her judgment in 70AD (Zec 14:6-21).

2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was

Romans 7:9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died

OC Israel had to be resurrected out of the ministry of death to receive life. Their members had to have their OC identity given away or spiritually destroyed. Hades/Sheol/Abraham's bossum IMO was only for Israel. The dead Gentiles on the other hand, at the resurrection, were released from the sea and were judged by the books (not OC Israel's book of life; Dan 12:1; Ex 32:32; Ps 69:28; Rev 13:8...compare with Isa 51:16). The Gentiles are often referred to as the "sea" (Isa 60:5; Ps 68:22; Ps 65:5; Dan 7:3; Isa 24:14).

The sheep and the goats judgment was the judgment between the believing OC remnant and the unbelieving OC non-remnant of Daniel's people.

Acts 3:23 `And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.

Daniel 12:1 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

Matthew 3:12 "His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Matthew 13:30 `Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.""'

Luke 3:17 "His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

The LoF annihilated their OC identity forever...it is everlasting and irreversable. Some may say that the "saved by fire" only refers to believers but it doesn't.

2 Tim 2:17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness."

1 Tim 1:19 keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. 20 Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have HANDED OVER TO SATAN, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.

1 Cor 5:5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant BY WHICH HE WAS sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."

Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

These former Christians who went back to Judaism or unbelief (similar to the 40 years in the wilderness) had to endure the LoF.

David

Imjustanant's picture

David;

Amen and amen!

ChristyGrl's picture

David,

What do you believe the Lake of Fire is?

preteristdave's picture

Dave, look carefully at Romans 4:16; Hebrews 9:15 and Romans 11:31 (among many others) which show who Christ was sent to save (the lost sheep of the house of Israel). Please carefully read my comment of Marcus' previous article. The resurrection of condemnation was for the purpose of being sent into the LoF and have the person's OC identity destroyed when the OC was destroyed. Their was no salvation under the OC/Law so until this was removed they couldn't receive the reconcilation which the firstfruit believers already had received prior to 70AD.

Coloss 1:22 yet He HAS NOW reconciled you (believers) in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach

COMPARE THE DIFFERENCE WITH....

1 Cor 5:5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh (AN OC TERM), so that his spirit may be SAVED IN THE DAY OF THE LORD JESUS (70AD).
(1 JN 2:16 For all that [is] in the world -- the lust of the FLESH, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life -- is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, AND the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.)

1 Cor 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire (LAKE OF FIRE).

1 Peter 4:6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

Notice who the resurrection was for (Ezekiel 37)....OC Israel! The OC body (and the members within it) had to die in the DoJ before it could be resurrected into its NC body. The elected remnant from the OC world (field, Mt 13:38) gave way to the harvest of the rest of Israel. This is why Jesus said the first (in the world) would be last.

Mt 16:25 "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 "For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

Jesus was saying it was better to give up your OC identity rather then have it destroyed away in the Lake of Fire. I'll be praying for you brother as you study and please pray for me. Your friend...David.

davecollins's picture

Dear David, thanks for your prayers and insights.Davo, you too! I know salvation is truly relational,that it is an abundant life of peace and joy and righteousness which we experience today,in Christ.
David, I believe the bible teaches that Jesus came to save those whom God" prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called. not from among the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles.

When you find the time please give me your CG take on Ezek.18:30f. Maybe I'm getting hung up on temporal judgement versus eternal redemption/purpose. It seems like those who did not repent were promised to die. This death can't be spiritual in that they were already dead in Adam. Let me know what you think. dave

DavidTimm's picture

"David, I believe the bible teaches that Jesus came to save those whom God" prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called. not from among the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles."

Dave, please read the following article. It has some good info concerning this:

http://www.presence.tv/cms/godsdivorce.shtml

preteristdave's picture

Eze 18:30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct," declares the Lord GOD. "Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. 31 "Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

Eze 18:21 "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Dave, Israel did die (Eze 37) "can these bones live?" because she was not able to keep the law. This is why Christ came to fulfill and then destroy the law (Mt 5:17,18) and spiritual death (1 Cor 15:55). Death wasn't destroyed for just believers but all men...and thus it lost it sting of sin. This is why the unbelievers were able to have their resurrection of condemnation. Sin no longer can reign in death where it received its power. Christ put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself (Heb 9:26). Not just some sin, not just alot of sin, but sin. Sin stills exists but it can no longer seperate man from God.

Isa 25:7 And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples, Even the veil which is stretched over all nations. 8 He will swallow up death for all time, And the Lord GOD will wipe tears away from all faces, And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth; For the LORD has spoken.

I agree that all men died in Adam but something in addition seems to have happened to Israel. Why else would Paul say....

Romans 7:8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died

Romans 5:13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

2 Cor 4:4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Hebrews 2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil

"David, I believe the bible teaches that Jesus came to save those whom God" prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called. not from among the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles"

We need to remember the their were some Gentiles among the Old Covenant (Deu 29). The Gentiles believers were chosen to receive mercy and make up part of spiritual Israel so that mercy could be given to the unbelieving and disobedient non-remnant of OC Israel and thus to the ends of the earth. This would occur when the fullness of the Gentiles had come in (Rom 11:25).

Rom 11:30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.

David

davo's picture

Davecollins: Nowhere could I find a passage which teaches a relational or spatial salvation without faith and repentance,although I found many which teach the distinguishing truths of obey/live vs. disobey/perish.

Dave, when you understand this from the "fulfilled grace" view then salvation is relational [Jn 17:3], and in that generation also carried a "spatial" deliverance - what salvation really is. None of these came/come about apart from a turned belief in God [repentance] through [faith in] Christ. So what you've said above is actual true. The issue of 'obey/live vs. disobey/perish" was and is in relation to temporal existence – not existence beyond the grave, that gets read into much more than is actually scripturally stated, and thus assumed.

"Salvation" is not about being safe and secure in the sanctuary of Heaven's haven beyond death. "Salvation" is about the saints of God in spiritual service as kingdom priests unto Him and before men. Ministering the message of reconciliation - the endless Gospel of Peace which is inclusive of all.

davo

davecollins's picture

David and Davo, I believe everything that you just stated in this previous post.
you wrote(Davo)"Salvation" is not about being safe and secure in the sanctuary of Heaven's haven beyond death. "Salvation" is about the saints of God in spiritual service as kingdom priests unto Him and before men. Ministering the message of reconciliation - the endless Gospel of Peace which is inclusive of all.

My question is, How do we know that the judgement was not "everlasting abhorrence" Dan.12:2?
Also, it would be very helpful to me if you would slowly walk thru for me, the end of the lifetime of the rebellious pre-70ad OC Jew and what is his eternal state and location.
Btw, We had John Ortberg, as a seminar speaker today...He was the teaching pastor at Willow Creek and is now the pastor at a presbyterian church in Ca.He said " Salvation, or eternal life is not about minimum requirements of going to heaven but is the reality of living in the presence of God...now Amen! your friend dave

davo's picture

Between David, Dave and Davo – and a number of Tim/ms at PP it all gets a bit interesting at times :)

davecollins: My question is, How do we know that the judgement was not "everlasting abhorrence" Dan.12:2?

I think verses 1 and 3 show the context as the judgment of the Parousia. I see your "everlasting abhorrence" in terms of "total abhorrence" – and this in relation to the OC, in which those that were rejecting the Gospel were trusting.

davecollins: Also, it would be very helpful to me if you would slowly walk thru for me, the end of the lifetime of the rebellious pre-70ad OC Jew and what is his eternal state and location.

Dave, however and whatever our state is beyond death no one can say – we're not told. However, those of the "this generation" that did not accept the "good news" that Jesus was the provider of the way into the NC – himself actually being the Way, perished along with all the other vestiges of the OC. I mean perished in the temporal sense – they lost their physical lives; yet were to find mercy through judgment. You remember those that did Paul "great harm" and how he handed such "to Satan that they might learn…" [1Tim 1:20] ["might" doesn't mean "maybe" but "would"], well this suggests punishment or perishing in terms of remedial restoration, not total ruin i.e., "everlasting" in the sense you've been using it – as we also see in the case of 1Cor 5:5 where "his spirit may be [not maybe] saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus." In other words – the eternal-ness of loss spoke of its totality, and that in regards to the OC life – for what would it profit if one should gain the whole world [all the earthly glory and accolades of the OC life] yet lose is soul – in the DoJ i.e., the LoF.

davecollins: Btw, We had John Ortberg, as a seminar speaker today... said " Salvation, or eternal life is not about minimum requirements of going to heaven but is the reality of living in the presence of God...

Nice to know I’m not a complete heretic ;)

davo

davecollins's picture

Thanks Davo, Have a blessed day! dave

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